What is wrong with Christianity? And Christians?

[JJ Husker]

Meh....I'm catholic and I'm not bothered too much by the Mary thing. The theory is that she isn't a God. She doesn't have the same powers as God...bla bla bla....but, she obviously is someone very special if God chose her to have her son. When people die they go to Heaven. Their souls don't die and they can still pray. Saying a Hale Mary, you aren't elevating her to God like. You are asking her to pray for you to God. If someone feels strength doing that and feels closer to God, then fine by me.

 

I never sit down and pray to Mary. I figure there is no need because I can pray directly to God himself so why bother with possible misinterpretation by Mary.

 

This is exactly how I feel about it. Seems like an added step or a waste of time to me. Go directly to the source. I have to vehemently disagree with knapp. It would depend on each individual persons feelings if they were in fact elevating a saint(s) to God's level. I've recited the Hail Mary and I don't elevate her to that level. Knapp has it wrong :-P

[killer cacti]

 

 

 

If you had only just cited the likelihood or the statistics I doubt he would have had a problem.

 

But in fact you said that living in America is the reason he is a Christian. That's an unwarranted generalization.

 

 

If someone is offended by that statement they've got bigger problems than being generalized as "likely growing up Christian."

 

I'm not offended, I was just pointing out that surroundings may not always be the cause of someone's beliefs.

 

Also, "KC has found Christianity because he was born in a largely Christian country." is not quite "likely growing up Christian." It's all in the way you say it.

 

 

I don't believe anyone is genetically predisposed to any specific religion, but feel free to cite any articles that make a counterpoint.

 

That being said, everything outside of you is your surroundings. That includes your parents, who I believe said raised you to be a Christian. Had you been born in Israel, your parents would have most likely followed Judaism and would have raised you to follow the same religion. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, your parents would have most likely followed Islam and would have raised you to follow the same religion. Had you been born in India, your parents would have most likely followed Hinduism and would have raised you to follow the same religion. And on and on and on.

 

Now there's a very key group of words that I think might be overlooked. There are a number of extenuating outside circumstances that can influence the religion you choose to follow. You mentioned that you studied a plethora of various religions and ultimately had to decide between Christianity and Buddhism. I'm thinking that something external--unbeknownst to you or otherwise--led you to desire to study those various religions. You ultimately decided on Christianity and that was likely a product of external influencers as well.

 

It's not something to be offended by: saying that, because you live in the United States, you are more likely--should you choose to follow a religion--to follow Christianity than any other religion.

 

 

I was raised as a Christian, but was allowed to make the choice. I was raised Lutheran, so I was baptized into the church at a young age, some other denominations call practically the same ritual a Christening or dedication. As an adult, I then had to accept that life or move on to something else. No one but myself had an impact on that decision.

 

As far as studying, I took a philosophy of religion course at Clemson that started my search, taught by a Hindu from India.

 

 

There's nothing wrong with Christians or Christianity. It's one of a number of hugely important religious movements in human history and uniquely tied to culture and society as we know them today. I'm critical of science denial and intolerance or divisiveness, which sometimes is done under the guise of religion, sometimes not.

 

KC, the point knapp is trying to make is that not everybody has much of a shake at open-ended options for religion. America is probably, as a whole, better than most. If you had been born in Iran, your truth likely would have ended up being quite different -- and then, so would that of your children. Luckily for you and them, you weren't -- but if you had been, alternate universe Iranian KC would probably feel the same way.

 

Zoogs, absolutely my choice would have been different in Iran, because it's practically force on each person, mine wasn't.

[TonyStalloni]

In Matthew 5 Jesus explained that his people were the salt of the earth. Most of us probably understand how salt was used in Jesus time so I won't go into detail. It was a flavor enhancer, preservative and a disinfectant. He was saying we need to be those three things in society to make society better. If we choose to be and do something else only vaguely related to Christianity then we are of no value and do more harm than good. On the other hand I think there are some true Christians in America and more so around the world that upset the apple cart of some powerful people's finances and power structures and get caught in the wrath that brings.

[zoogs]

Hm -- how about if you had been born in India, raised Hindu, attended the University of Mumbai and took a few religion courses there taught by Western professors?

 

There's no definitive answer, of course, but wouldn't you say it's much more likely you would have ended up Hindu and not Christian?

[killer cacti]

Hm -- how about if you had been born in India, raised Hindu, attended the University of Mumbai and took a few religion courses there taught by Western professors?

 

There's no definitive answer, of course, but wouldn't you say it's much more likely you would have ended up Hindu and not Christian?

 

Up until the religion courses, yes. However, it all depends on the person and their curiosity for other religions as to if they go outside their comfort zone.

 

I see what you're saying, for sure.

[strigori]

To start off, I did grow up going to church most Sundays, went through the 'conformation' classes as a teen, and rejected what I had been taught in my early 20's. I do have personal experience inside Lutheran churches.

 

For me the top issues with Christianity, or most other religions for that matter, are the overwhelming hypocrisy, the anti-science and learning stances, and the desire to control and shape every aspect of people's lives.

 

The anti-science and learning stance is not necessarily attached to every one in the religions, but the majority of their leaders, mouthpieces and loudmouths are very much in this group. Items that we will all get to see on public display with election season coming. Anti-evolution, 'the earth is only 5000 years old' and so on. And often trying to outright ban the teaching of said science if they feel it differs from what they interpret the Bible to say. It's not really surprising as one of the opening lessons of the Bible is how knowing things and asking questions is the 'Fall of Man'

 

The hypocrisy is either willful, or just bred from ignorance, as many people of faith have little actual knowledge of what their sacred book actually contains. They are just as apt to take what the preacher says as truth. And if we leave the West, in many places the masses can't read, so they can only take what others say as being accurate. The followers of a pacifist tending to be the biggest warmongers, gun loving, and pro-death penalty people out there.

 

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Heard it often. Yet venom and hate are going to be as often directed at people outside their own religions as not.

Guilt and shame get taught as virtues, so you can make sure you know how you are so worthless and vile, and need to be continually begging forgiveness for being human, even just for your own thoughts.

 

And the granddaddy of them all. Greed. Mega-church pastors living in multimillion dollar mansions. Every politician who likes to talk about the Bible will follow it with rhetoric about needing to give more tax cuts to the wealthy, and businesses, anything and everything to make more money. Budget cuts? Cut it from programs for the poor. Nebraska and other states blocking Medicade expansion for the poor, because of money. Many of the other hotbutton issues were not directly addressed in the Bible. Greed is however, and it is addressed often. Yet it is completely forgotten. Hell, the Pope gets attacked in the media by Christians for saying wealth inequity is an issue.

 

I remember when those What Would Jesus Do? bracelets that were so popular once, and its readily apparent that what Jesus would do would not be approved of by many to most Christians. And none of these issues are really new. They go back centuries. Kings and aristocracy pushed the idea of a Divine Mandate to ensure their wealth and power. The Catholic church threatened to kill Galileo for daring to say the earth revolved around the sun.

 

But I think a very large amount of people, particularly in this country, have a Puritan hangover, and call themselves "Christian" because they feel its something they are supposed to be, not really what they believe in.

[Excel]

Hm -- how about if you had been born in India, raised Hindu, attended the University of Mumbai and took a few religion courses there taught by Western professors?

 

There's no definitive answer, of course, but wouldn't you say it's much more likely you would have ended up Hindu and not Christian?

 

Or better yet, taking a few religion courses about Christianity taught by native Indian Hindus.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

 

 

 

 

If you had only just cited the likelihood or the statistics I doubt he would have had a problem.

 

But in fact you said that living in America is the reason he is a Christian. That's an unwarranted generalization.

 

 

If someone is offended by that statement they've got bigger problems than being generalized as "likely growing up Christian."

 

I'm not offended, I was just pointing out that surroundings may not always be the cause of someone's beliefs.

 

Also, "KC has found Christianity because he was born in a largely Christian country." is not quite "likely growing up Christian." It's all in the way you say it.

 

 

I don't believe anyone is genetically predisposed to any specific religion, but feel free to cite any articles that make a counterpoint.

 

That being said, everything outside of you is your surroundings. That includes your parents, who I believe said raised you to be a Christian. Had you been born in Israel, your parents would have most likely followed Judaism and would have raised you to follow the same religion. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, your parents would have most likely followed Islam and would have raised you to follow the same religion. Had you been born in India, your parents would have most likely followed Hinduism and would have raised you to follow the same religion. And on and on and on.

 

Now there's a very key group of words that I think might be overlooked. There are a number of extenuating outside circumstances that can influence the religion you choose to follow. You mentioned that you studied a plethora of various religions and ultimately had to decide between Christianity and Buddhism. I'm thinking that something external--unbeknownst to you or otherwise--led you to desire to study those various religions. You ultimately decided on Christianity and that was likely a product of external influencers as well.

 

It's not something to be offended by: saying that, because you live in the United States, you are more likely--should you choose to follow a religion--to follow Christianity than any other religion.

 

 

I was raised as a Christian, but was allowed to make the choice. I was raised Lutheran, so I was baptized into the church at a young age, some other denominations call practically the same ritual a Christening or dedication. As an adult, I then had to accept that life or move on to something else. No one but myself had an impact on that decision.

 

As far as studying, I took a philosophy of religion course at Clemson that started my search, taught by a Hindu from India.

 

 

 

I disagree. No doubt, you and you alone make the decision. But I have no doubt in my mind that there were external influences that swayed your ultimate decision one way or the other. But we'll just let bygones be bygones.

[walksalone]

Nothing's wrong with believing in something, a high power, the spaghettichefboyardee thingy, whatever.

 

But Christianity becomes a problem when it tells you to like or not to like something, not based on what you feel, but on what it tells you to feel. This is inherently the same problem with Islam and Judaism. Religion can take a relatively normal, sane person, and turn them into a raving lunatic.

[ZRod]

Mary and the Saints are human, and therefore no different than any other human. They are not gods to be prayed to. They do not have a seat at or near God's throne and will be standing amongst the other humans in Heaven in the afterlife. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible which says Mary is able to listen to prayers or intercede on the behalf of other humans.

 

The concept of praying to humans is what NUance is talking about. It most definitely does elevate Mary (and the Saints) to the status of gods.

Doesn't the whole born without sin, and assumption thing kind of elevate her in the first place?

[Landlord]

 

Doesn't the whole born without sin, and assumption thing kind of elevate her in the first place?

 

 

Don't know what you mean by assumption, but Mary was without sin?

 

 

 

 

 

This is inherently the same problem with any belief system in the entire world, whether it be based on religion, education, science, personal experience, philosophy, social justice, or anything else.

 

Fixed this for you. People have a weird tendency to lump stuff into unnecessary categories that don't paint the whole picture. People try to tell you what to believe and accept from all sorts of different worldviews. That is human nature, not religious nature.

[walksalone]

 

This is inherently the same problem with any belief system in the entire world, whether it be based on religion, education, science, personal experience, philosophy, social justice, or anything else.

 

Fixed this for you. People have a weird tendency to lump stuff into unnecessary categories that don't paint the whole picture. People try to tell you what to believe and accept from all sorts of different worldviews. That is human nature, not religious nature.

 

 

But why is it that most wars are started over religion, and not "Science, education, personal experience, philosophy, social justice, or anything else"??

 

If the higher power tells you to go out and slaughter those who don't subscribe to your system of beliefs, it's ok?

[Scratchtown]

I hadn't been around till today to see any of this. I posted the Matt Chandler videos on the LGBT "issue". Never expected, nor did I want it to turn into giving the impression of the Christian community as being hateful.

Anyway, I would say that I consider myself to be a "Bible-believing Christian" that would enjoy telling you how Jesus changed my life for the better. Rather than tell you how to live yours according to my beliefs.

In terms of something being wrong with Christianity? I would say there is nothing wrong with it. Especially if it comes from the Bible and not getting taken out of context like the "Levitical Laws" happen to most of the time. Just like anything else, the application of the faith gets humanly distorted. According to scripture, we aren't perfect beings, capable of horrible things (and good). Sometimes, like some of stated, the perception of the faith gets purported as being largely "bigot" and discriminatory because of a select few. People have a consistent action of taking a good thing and "corrupting" it.

I have been guilty at times of applying the concepts of the Bible in a horrible way, and I feel ashamed because of it. It wasn't right of me to do that. Doing that simply pushes people away further than before. I was young(er), and dumb. Thinking I could just say something and have it be done.

 

But, here is one reason why I believe that Jesus, was divine. No one can really argue (credibly) that Jesus didn't exist, most scholarly people(secular and non secular) would refute that claim. We know that the 12 apostles actually lived too, because some of them were martyred at the commands of a real Roman Emperor Nero. So these disciples/apostles, were followers of Jesus. The day Jesus was taken, mocked, beaten, flogged, and ultimately crucified, his disciples were afraid. Afraid of the persecution of just having been a follower of Jesus. Most people know that Peter denied Christ 3 times before the rooster were to crow. He was scared of what people would think of or do to him. So Christ gets crucified. Dies. Rises 3 days later and appears to his disciples to show his divinity and that he was God in the flesh. Alive!

So based on this. We have a group of men, who were cowards at the sight or mere thought of persecution. Who then 3 days later after just being terrified of persecution, decide to man up and preach something that isn't true? Ha! No human beings do that. They were so convinced that Jesus was alive and real...even one of the disciples put his finger to the wounds in Christ's hand after the resurrection.

I don't know about how you see it, but for me, this is a remarkable change in attitude and evidence to me that tells me this Book, The Bible is 100 percent true. Do with it what you will, but that is one of the evidences that did it for me. Which also leads me to believe that what these guys wrote about is 100 percent true.

 

Thats just me though.

[JJ Husker]

Landlord-

 

Surely you've heard of the immaculate conception of Mary. Lots of people mistakenly think that has to do with her conceiving Jesus. It actually refers to the church teaching that she was born without original sin. A sort of retroactive preparation of the vessel if you will. Look it up.

 

Also the assumption of Mary says she was taken up, body and soul, into heaven at the end of her earthly life.

[Landlord]

 

But why is it that most wars are started over religion, and not "Science, education, personal experience, philosophy, social justice, or anything else"??

 

If the higher power tells you to go out and slaughter those who don't subscribe to your system of beliefs, it's ok?

 

 

Most wars are started over patriotism and pursuits of power, not religion. In fact, according to Encyclopedia of Wars, 6.98% of all wars as being religious in nature.