Confederate flags coming down, and Civil War introspective

[zoogs]

Woah. This is happening.

 

Sen. Paul Thurmond (yes, that Thurmond):

 

Our ancestors were literally fighting to keep human beings as slaves, and to continue the unimaginable acts that occur when someone is held against their will. I am not proud of this heritage....

 

I am proud to take a stand and no longer be silent. I am proud to be on the right side of history regarding the removal of this symbol of racism and bigotry from the State House. We must take down the Confederate flag and we must take it down now. But if we stop there, we have cheated ourselves out of an opportunity to start a different conversation about healing in our state. I am ready.

Ta-Nehisi Coates:

(6/22) What This Cruel War Was Over

 

(6/18) Take down the Confederate Flag now

 

These two articles were a great look back at the history of the Confederate cause. Maybe I had read some of the same stuff in my high school history education before, but clearly it must have not registered the same kind of impact.

 

I'm glad that the cause is being explicitly repudiated today. The flag is a mere symbol, yes, and it's undergone varying amounts of repurposing over the years. But, symbolism still speaks. And so does action. Definitely a moment where you can feel proud as an American.

[The Dude]

If the southern states hadn't seceded (in an attempt to preserve slavery), we have every reason to believe Lincoln had no intentions of abolishing slavery, and slavery probably would have lasted a lot longer.

 

Some heavy irony there.

[NUance]

Thurmond’s father, Strom, ran for president in 1948 as a ‘Dixiecrat,’ under the banner of the States’ Rights Democratic ticket after President Harry Truman ordered the desegregation of the U.S. military. Thurmond first won a seat in the U.S. Senate in 1954 as a special election write-in candidate and would soon draft initial versions of the Southern Manifesto, opposing racial desegregation after the Supreme Court case Brown v. Board of Education. The elder Thurmond’s 24-hour filibuster of the Civil Rights Act of 1957 remains the longest in Senate history. Strom served in the U.S. Senate until 2003, when he left office at the age of 100.

 

 

Wow! Strom Thurman must be rolling over in his grave!

 

Good on the Thurmans. The living ones anyway. It's time to move away from official support for the Confederacy. They lost. Human rights won.

[HuskerNBigD]

Not that I don't necessarily agree that many of the battle flags should be taken down, because of what they symbolize I do get really tired of people having no clue what they're talking about when it comes to racism and prejudice actions during the time. Everyone blankets the South as the only racist ones durning the Civil War. If you took the time to actually research the Civil War, you'd realize that it was not started because of slavery, that just makes for an easier and more emotional story. Economic oppression faced by the southern states was the main factor and the whole cotton gin thing had already drastically decreased the need for manual labor on the plantations. Additionally, the north was just as racist, if not more than the South. The only reason there weren't as many slaves in the North is because it was more industrial than the South; where other immigrants, women and children were collecting white lung and dying in warehouse fires left and right. Go read Lincoln's inauguration speech. He had no intentions of helping blacks, he was ready to ship them back to Africa or create a banana republic in the Caribbean with them. The emancipation proclamation was only used once he was afraid the south might hold the upper hand.

[zoogs]

If you took the time to actually research the Civil War, you'd realize that it was not started because of slavery, that just makes for an easier and more emotional story.

The Lost Cause?

 

1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12

 

The people of the South, says a contemporary, are not fighting for slavery but for independence. Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.

[HuskerNBigD]

 

If you took the time to actually research the Civil War, you'd realize that it was not started because of slavery, that just makes for an easier and more emotional story.

The Lost Cause?1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12

The people of the South, says a contemporary, are not fighting for slavery but for independence. Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.

Huffington Post, Washington Post, Washington Journal, and Wikipedia. Many references written after the recent tragic events, trying to draw off emotions and not use rational thinking. The media needs racial divide and terrorist acts like what happened in South Carolina to survive and promoting garbage like some of the links above, prove that exact point.

[The Dude]

If you took the time to actually research the Civil War, you'd realize that it was not started because of slavery, that just makes for an easier and more emotional story. Economic oppression faced by the southern states was the main factor

 

Except southern states explicitly cited slavery in their declarations of secession.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

 

and the whole cotton gin thing had already drastically decreased the need for manual labor on the plantations.

 

Man, that's just not how it worked out. It made cotton farming more profitable, so there was an increased need for land and slave labor.

 

Additionally, the north was just as racist, if not more than the South. The only reason there weren't as many slaves in the North is because it was more industrial than the South; where other immigrants, women and children were collecting white lung and dying in warehouse fires left and right. Go read Lincoln's inauguration speech. He had no intentions of helping blacks, he was ready to ship them back to Africa or create a banana republic in the Caribbean with them. The emancipation proclamation was only used once he was afraid the south might hold the upper hand.

You're mostly right about Lincoln, but he waited until Lee's invasion of the north was stopped at Antietam before he announced the Emancipation Declaration. When the north had the upper hand.

 

It wasn't initially about slavery in the north, it was about preserving the union, but it eventually became about slavery after hundreds of thousands of Americans died, and there was a growing feeling that the war needed to be about something even bigger.

 

Lincoln initially had no intention to end slavery, he just didn't want it spreading to the territories, and the south freaked out.

[Enhance]

History matters, but only as a teaching tool. We can't change anything that happened or rely on the hypothetical game. Slavery and the slave trade played a significant role in the secession of the South. The Confederate Flag, for many African Americans, stands for all the injustices their ancestors or people faced.

 

In my opinion, it's similar to a bunch of people hanging a Nazi flag outside their house. This flag stands for many things, but for many Jewish people, it stands for the mass murder of millions of people including family members.

 

If you saw people holding a flag that stood for the mass killings and injustices of your ancestors, how would you feel? The Confederate Flag stands for many things for many people, but, for a lot of black people, it's a cruel reminder of what their ancestors went through. This is a long time coming.

[The Dude]

I like to think it means something completely different in the Dukes of Hazzard universe.

[NUance]

I like to think it means something completely different in the Dukes of Hazzard universe.

 

 

Just'a good ol' boys. Never meanin' no harm.

[Moiraine]

 

 

If you took the time to actually research the Civil War, you'd realize that it was not started because of slavery, that just makes for an easier and more emotional story.

The Lost Cause?1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12

The people of the South, says a contemporary, are not fighting for slavery but for independence. Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.

Huffington Post, Washington Post, Washington Journal, and Wikipedia. Many references written after the recent tragic events, trying to draw off emotions and not use rational thinking. The media needs racial divide and terrorist acts like what happened in South Carolina to survive and promoting garbage like some of the links above, prove that exact point.

 

 

Way to ignore the nps.gov and history.com links, and the sources listed on the wikipedia links.

 

Racial divide exists whether the media reports on it or not. I'm not sure wtf is up with this new platform of claiming that it doesn't exist and is made up. It only seems exaggerated to people who don't have to deal with it.

[BigRedBuster]

Well, it has been amazing to me the number of people on the Internet and social media who actually support flying this flag. Unbelievable.

 

FYI.....this flag was offensive to people long before this week and for good reason.

 

It's also amazing how some try to rewrite history about the civil war.

 

It definitely was about slavery when the documents from the confederate states claim it was.

[Saunders]

Interesting thoughts on this by Saints TE Benjamin Watson:

 

It's hard to explain how I feel when I see the rebel flag. The emotional bucket overflows with anger, trepidation, sorrow, a perverted pride and apathy. As hard as I try not to make assumptions about whoever is flying the flag or driving around with it mounted on their truck, my mind can not hold back the painful images of the past generations.... and the current one. The nine racially motivated murders of last week, have written a new chapter in the annals of race violence in this country. And at the center of it all, proudly displayed in images of the killer, the rebel flag.

When I moved to South Carolina in 1996, albeit from the southern state of Virginia, I was somewhat taken aback by the frequency of which I saw the flag. It was on vehicles, displayed on homes, and worn on t-shirts. Like grits and sweet tea, the flag was just part of the culture, an enduring symbol of all things southern. This never changed how I felt about it, but it did teach me to give individuals a certain amount of grace and realize that not everyone who embraced the flag embraced prejudice and supremacy alike.

 

I can remember visiting a teammate's home for the first time my sophomore year. Frank, a white offensive guard on my high school football team, had quickly become my closest friend, welcoming me, the new guy, when others weren’t so quick to do so. As I walked into his room, I froze, staring uncomfortably at the large Rebel flag, hanging above his bed. I remember the lump in my throat as I briefly attempted to convey in the most non-condemning way, what the flag represented to me and many others like me. Because of the lingering heaviness of the moment, I can’t recall much after that but I do remember how valued I felt, when I returned to Frank’s home some time later and the flag was gone! He didn’t have to, but because he cared about our friendship, because he cared about me, he empathetically removed the offensive banner on my behalf and maybe for the first time heard how painful that symbol could be. That day was a turning point in our relationship and today; Frank continues to be one of my best friends.

 

It should not take the brutal, senseless killings of innocent black Americans in a church by a young white man, to ensure the removal of the confederate battle flag from the State House grounds where it has flown in proud defiance of the civil rights movement since the 1960’s. If the flag wasn’t problematic before this heinous crime it should not be problematic now, and to hastily remove it in response to this slaughter, although a sympathetic (and economic) gesture, does not address the heart of the matter. In my estimation it is indeed the HEART, that is the matter. Displaying the confederate flag is not inherently wrong. This is not NECESSARILY an issue on which we can take a moral stance. It is not a simple right or wrong dilemma. I understand that for some, the confederate battle flag does not evoke sentiments of racism or supremacy; it is simply a tribute to their heritage, ancestors, and homeland. For others, including the killer, it means much more and for others it is a hiding place for passive racism and group "identity." It is without a doubt, however, a litmus test, exposing our willingness to deny our liberty, our freedom, to fly the flag of our choice, for the sake of offending our countrymen whose SHARED HERITAGE is conversely stained with death, injustice, rape, terror and inferiority.

 

If we remove the Confederate flag from the State Capitol for any reason other than a change in the hearts of South Carolinians, we may as well leave it be. This is not the time for political statements and worrying about national perception. But if we, like my friend Frank, finally listen to the cries and concerns of those we say we care about, soften our hearts, and choose to lay our liberties aside to assuage the pain of our brothers, the only suitable option would be a unanimous decision to remove the flag from the public grounds at the Palmetto State Capitol. The past and it's people, as acclaimed or afflicted as they may be, should always be remembered. But it is difficult to completely "move forward" if painful, divisive icons continue to stand unchallenged.

Sometimes, tragedies have a way of jolting us, laying the truth about us individually and collectively, stark naked for all to see. The outpouring for Charleston has been nothing short of extraordinary and inspiring. Sometimes it takes one person, one neighborhood, one city, and one state to show the unifying love of Christ to the world. As a canyon is carved by the flow of a river long dried up, may the passion of this week cut deep, leaving a permanent change in hearts and souls long after the emotion has gone.

 

http://athlonsports.com/overtime/benjamin-watson-post-heartfelt-saints-south-carolina-confederate-flag

 

[BigRedBuster]

Very well said.

 

Facebook seems to be absolutely over ran by idiots who claim that anyone who is offended by something needs to just grow up and they support flying the flag.

 

I am fighting the urge to ask these people....so.....are you in the group that is offended by two men or two women wanting to get married? Are you offended when you see two men holding hands walking down the street? Were you in the same group that got offended when a mosque was going to be built a couple blocks away from ground zero?

 

It is amazing to me the hypocrisy of so many people.

[Creighton Duke]

You're right, it is hypocrisy. That with the right administrators in place, knee jerk, immediate changes (take down flags, take away guns) can be implemented as the result of a single (or a few in close proximity), albeit tragic, event. Be careful when you're applauding this kind of activity. The precedent is being set for things to just as easily go in the other direction depending on which of the ruling elite happens to be calling the shots at the time.