Denying science in the classroom

[Redux]

It's a chicken or the egg argument. Without religion, horrible people would find another way to be horrible and convince others to be horrible with them. This is very true.

 

But, without religion, how many massive landmark killings are avoided? I feel like the number of deaths lowers significantly.

[Ratt Mhule]

 

 

 

That hasn't stopped millions of people from dying or killing based off its many interpretations.

 

People are stupid and horrible. It's not religion's fault.

 

 

Religion is the root cause. It plants the idea's into people's heads.

 

Radical Islamic terrorism wouldn't exist without religion. The westboro baptist church wouldn't exist without religion, etc.

 

And I know WBC hasn't killed anyone. Just a hate group using free speech to their benefit.

 

 

Take religion out of the equation and people won't stop doing bad things. Religion just puts a different spin on the action. It's an enabler of actions, but in the absence of religion people will just find another enabler.

 

 

I realize that. There would still be killings, rapes, robberies, etc even without religion. Im strictly talking about these types of religious groups that do it in the name of God.

[RedDenver]

I understand why you're confused, Landlord. I was there.

And I understand why you're unable to see though the literal text to a deeper meaning, knapplc. I was there.

[Landlord]

I think the point is; if the bible itself says it is to be taken literally, but it's stories don't jive with the real world it's foundation as an infallible religious text is built on sand. If one subject xan be questioned, then all of them are in question.

 

That would certainly be true if the bible said to take it literally, but to the best of my knowledge, the bible doesn't say that.

 

 

 

 

I think the bible says it's not ok to get it wrong though, right? I know it's hypothetical; but if you start a new religion based on the New Testament only, that's not going to jive with all its references to the Old Testament. And now man has created the religion and not god. The religion has become the crutch for the belief system of the individual(s).

 

The bible itself is full of people getting it wrong but being looked upon with favor by God. Man definitely did create Christianity. Hell, most of the ideas about God that people have are highly anthromorphized and man-centric. That only says something about us - not about God, however you want to define that. The bible definitely models a faith in which you are not expected or asked to have it all figured out, and not only that, but a faith built on trust rather than on 'correct' beliefs.

 

 

 

 

 

Religion is the root cause. It plants the idea's into people's heads.

 

Radical Islamic terrorism wouldn't exist without religion. The westboro baptist church wouldn't exist without religion, etc.

 

And I know WBC hasn't killed anyone. Just a hate group using free speech to their benefit.

 

What about the atrocities of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Cuba, China, and North Korea, all official atheist state communist regimes?

[Landlord]

knapp, i'm not confused about the Christian faith (I mean, ok I am, but in a very good and healthy way). I'm confused about the seeming lack of logic in your conclusions. It seems you are jumping over a very wide swath of middle ground in your, "If this, then that" maxims.

[Ratt Mhule]

 

I think the point is; if the bible itself says it is to be taken literally, but it's stories don't jive with the real world it's foundation as an infallible religious text is built on sand. If one subject xan be questioned, then all of them are in question.

 

That would certainly be true if the bible said to take it literally, but to the best of my knowledge, the bible doesn't say that.

 

 

 

 

I think the bible says it's not ok to get it wrong though, right? I know it's hypothetical; but if you start a new religion based on the New Testament only, that's not going to jive with all its references to the Old Testament. And now man has created the religion and not god. The religion has become the crutch for the belief system of the individual(s).

 

The bible itself is full of people getting it wrong but being looked upon with favor by God. Man definitely did create Christianity. Hell, most of the ideas about God that people have are highly anthromorphized and man-centric. That only says something about us - not about God, however you want to define that. The bible definitely models a faith in which you are not expected or asked to have it all figured out, and not only that, but a faith built on trust rather than on 'correct' beliefs.

 

 

 

 

 

Religion is the root cause. It plants the idea's into people's heads.

 

Radical Islamic terrorism wouldn't exist without religion. The westboro baptist church wouldn't exist without religion, etc.

 

And I know WBC hasn't killed anyone. Just a hate group using free speech to their benefit.

 

What about the atrocities of the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Cuba, China, and North Korea, all official atheist state communist regimes?

 

 

Pretty sure Hitler identifies himself as Catholic in Mein Kampf.

 

But yes, I don't deny atrocities done by people outside of religion either. Redux said many people have killed or have been killed in the name of God. Moraine said that it has nothing to do with religion. I said religion planted those ideas. These examples just prove that evil exists without religion. It does not disprove what I said about people killing in the name of God.

[Moiraine]

I could have chosen to take offense to half a dozen replies in this thread. You want to think I'm "condescending" and "obnoxious" because I said something in a kindly way to Landlord, that's on you.

No one said they were offended. We said you were being condescending, patronizing, and projecting.

 

You've also made similar statements multiple times in this thread. If you'd only done it one time I doubt anyone would have commented.

 

I get that people don't like to think about this

 

Believe me, I've been there, that guy who didn't want to answer that question. I understand why it's not something you want to answer.

 

believe me I know why it makes people uncomfortable to try and answer

 

I understand why you're confused, Landlord. I was there.

All of this is projecting the feelings you once had to people who may or may not feel these things at all and I haven't seen anyone hint at it. It's taking away from the conversation becauase, even if it's not your intention, it comes off as you claiming you've reached a level of enlightenment and the other people in the conversation aren't there yet because they haven't reaches the same conclusion as you.

[JJ Husker]

I could have chosen to take offense to half a dozen replies in this thread. You want to think I'm "condescending" and "obnoxious" because I said something in a kindly way to Landlord, that's on you.

 

Well, I guess that's one way to go with it.

 

BTW- I didn't say it wasn't done in a kindly manner. I only was pointing out it was coming off as condescending (by me anyway) so that you would be aware of that. I think you have studied the hell out of this issue and have come to a conclusion and you are convinced everyone else must come to the same conclusion. And, if they don't arrive at the same place you are, they either will eventually or they aren't putting in the same effort and research that you have. Personally, I am perfectly content realizing I may not understand everything or have all the answers. Part of that contentment stems from my belief that I don't think it is humanly possible to fully understand a supernatural being and I don't think it is possible to understand this issue by using scientific methods. So maybe, possibly, some others of us aren't at the same place you were at one time.

[Redux]

I'm confused, what in this thread is there to be offended by if you no longer devote yourself to religion?

[knapplc]

knapp, i'm not confused about the Christian faith (I mean, ok I am, but in a very good and healthy way). I'm confused about the seeming lack of logic in your conclusions. It seems you are jumping over a very wide swath of middle ground in your, "If this, then that" maxims.

 

I know what you're confused by. I didn't say, mean or imply that you were confused about the Christian faith. That's something Moiraine and JJ said, and it was an unfair leap on their part. So it goes.

[Moiraine]

 

 

knapp, i'm not confused about the Christian faith (I mean, ok I am, but in a very good and healthy way). I'm confused about the seeming lack of logic in your conclusions. It seems you are jumping over a very wide swath of middle ground in your, "If this, then that" maxims.

I know what you're confused by. I didn't say, mean or imply that you were confused about the Christian faith. That's something Moiraine and JJ said, and it was an unfair leap on their part. So it goes.

Okay, what did you mean by "I was there" ?

 

I get that people don't like to think about this

 

Believe me, I've been there, that guy who didn't want to answer that question. I understand why it's not something you want to answer.

 

believe me I know why it makes people uncomfortable to try and answer

 

I understand why you're confused, Landlord. I was there.

And can you see why we came to that conclusion? You used to be Christian, now you're not, and 4 times in this topic you've said (paraphrased) you understand what people are going through with these questions because you went through it.

 

What are you talking about if not the Christian faith?

[knapplc]

 

I could have chosen to take offense to half a dozen replies in this thread. You want to think I'm "condescending" and "obnoxious" because I said something in a kindly way to Landlord, that's on you.

 

Well, I guess that's one way to go with it.

 

BTW- I didn't say it wasn't done in a kindly manner. I only was pointing out it was coming off as condescending (by me anyway) so that you would be aware of that. I think you have studied the hell out of this issue and have come to a conclusion and you are convinced everyone else must come to the same conclusion. And, if they don't arrive at the same place you are, they either will eventually or they aren't putting in the same effort and research that you have. Personally, I am perfectly content realizing I may not understand everything or have all the answers. Part of that contentment stems from my belief that I don't think it is humanly possible to fully understand a supernatural being and I don't think it is possible to understand this issue by using scientific methods. So maybe, possibly, some others of us aren't at the same place you were at one time.

 

 

Two thousand years of study of the Christian faith, and you think I'm so arrogant that I think everyone will eventually come to the same conclusions I've come to?

 

Don't make me out to be so stupid. Everyone has a different path in life. If you're Christian and you're happy about it, not pushing your religion on anyone else (including the classroom), then I'm happy for you. That doesn't mean I can't talk about my point of view, nor does it mean that I shouldn't present it as factual from my perspective. Don't expect things of me you wouldn't expect from yourself.

[knapplc]

Moiraine, I think there are a lot of strong feelings about faith in this thread, and those of us who don't share that faith aren't going to be perceived as anything but "the bad guy."

 

I also think we've gone from discussing the validity of the Bible to attacking the messenger.

[Moiraine]

 

 

 

 

I could have chosen to take offense to half a dozen replies in this thread. You want to think I'm "condescending" and "obnoxious" because I said something in a kindly way to Landlord, that's on you.

Well, I guess that's one way to go with it.

 

BTW- I didn't say it wasn't done in a kindly manner. I only was pointing out it was coming off as condescending (by me anyway) so that you would be aware of that. I think you have studied the hell out of this issue and have come to a conclusion and you are convinced everyone else must come to the same conclusion. And, if they don't arrive at the same place you are, they either will eventually or they aren't putting in the same effort and research that you have. Personally, I am perfectly content realizing I may not understand everything or have all the answers. Part of that contentment stems from my belief that I don't think it is humanly possible to fully understand a supernatural being and I don't think it is possible to understand this issue by using scientific methods. So maybe, possibly, some others of us aren't at the same place you were at one time.

Two thousand years of study of the Christian faith, and you think I'm so arrogant that I think everyone will eventually come to the same conclusions I've come to?

 

Don't make me out to be so stupid. Everyone has a different path in life. If you're Christian and you're happy about it, not pushing your religion on anyone else (including the classroom), then I'm happy for you. That doesn't mean I can't talk about my point of view, nor does it mean that I shouldn't present it as factual from my perspective. Don't expect things of me you wouldn't expect from yourself.

 

We're expecting that you mean what you've said. That you understand what each person you've said "I was there once" to is going through. That they're confused and uncomfortable. Even though they haven't said they're uncomfortable.

[Moiraine]

Moiraine, I think there are a lot of strong feelings about faith in this thread, and those of us who don't share that faith aren't going to be perceived as anything but "the bad guy."

 

I also think we've gone from discussing the validity of the Bible to attacking the messenger.

 

That's a good way to avoid the question I asked. I don't think anyone cares (as it applies to this discussion) whether you're Christian or not. You're not being persecuted. You were condescending and patronizing to multiple people and now you're acting like the victim instead of trying to understand why people took it that way. I'm gonna point out one more time though that I don't think anyone was offended and I don't think anyone is mad so enemy is a funny word to use.