'Mansplaining'

[zoogs]

Not sure whether  or  is more appropriate here.

 

If it were Tom Brady, by the way, we all know he'd get much more favorable public treatment. 

 

The throngs of people eagerly spiking the ball on Cam "always been trash", by the way: where are they on holding Brady to account for his despicable silence in response to the Trump tapes? Brady gets a pass. And he shouldn't.

[Landlord]

The point is that it does happen, and even if she doesn't lose her job, she still has to, very unfairly, deal with a nonstop torrent of harassment and being vilified because how dare she cost the superstar quarterback his sponsorships and public image. 

 

 

 

I will say though, on a different note, this whole ordeal has been a bit convicting for me on throwing around labels and categorizing strangers online. It's pretty effortless to demonize people anonymously, but actually personally knowing someone that this is unjustly happening to has opened my eyes a bit. I'd like to think that I'm slow to throw around labels and condemnations towards actual people, but I certainly need to do better.

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

8 minutes ago, zoogs said:

 

You might've stopped here or branched off into a different direction than the rest of your actual words. Which is the actual thing that's incredible here.

 

I'm not interested in attacking your character, but it's important that you know this. 

 

I mean, wow, at this point you're actually saying "He didn't destroy her career" (is that the threshold?) with an ugly side of "her career may benefit from this publicity", and that the people around her are "apologists". Yeesh. That's pretty f'd up, man.

 

 

 

When did I suggest that it was the threshold? I only stated that I don't think it will hurt her career, and that I think it may benefit it because of the political leaning of the people around her.

 

Hell, I even added (regarding the career benefit comment) that it didn't make Cam's comments any unnecessary. I did that so nobody would overreact to the comment that she might benefit from it. 

 

The apologist comment was out of line (Sorry, I was a little triggered).

[B.B. Hemingway]

2 minutes ago, zoogs said:

 

 

If it were Tom Brady, by the way, we all know he'd get much more favorable public treatment. 

 

Couldn't disagree more. Espn, and every other media outlet would tear him apart.

 

 

3 minutes ago, zoogs said:

 

 

The throngs of people eagerly spiking the ball on Cam "always been trash", by the way: where are they on holding Brady to account for his despicable silence in response to the Trump tapes? Brady gets a pass. And he shouldn't.

 

Trump is a piece of s#!t. Just because he's an acquaintance of Trump's means he has to come to bat for that? Nah, not in my book. And I'm consistent on this. I've never suggested Cam is "trash". He made a dumb comment. He's human. (That's why I think it's overreacting).

[B.B. Hemingway]

7 minutes ago, Landlord said:

The point is that it does happen, and even if she doesn't lose her job, she still has to, very unfairly, deal with a nonstop torrent of harassment and being vilified because how dare she cost the superstar quarterback his sponsorships and public image. 

 

 

 

I will say though, on a different note, this whole ordeal has been a bit convicting for me on throwing around labels and categorizing strangers online. It's pretty effortless to demonize people anonymously, but actually personally knowing someone that this is unjustly happening to has opened my eyes a bit. I'd like to think that I'm slow to throw around labels and condemnations towards actual people, but I certainly need to do better.

 

 

Agreed. After Zoogs called me out, I read through my last handful of posts. Disappointed in a few of the things that I said.

 

I know you guys don't get it. But it is possible to have respect for women, and minorities, while also finding all of the sensitivity a bit repulsive.... All I'll say for myself is that, I am consistent on that (not a sympathizer).

[teachercd]

6 minutes ago, Landlord said:

The point is that it does happen, and even if she doesn't lose her job, she still has to, very unfairly, deal with a nonstop torrent of harassment and being vilified because how dare she cost the superstar quarterback his sponsorships and public image. 

 

 

 

I will say though, on a different note, this whole ordeal has been a bit convicting for me on throwing around labels and categorizing strangers online. It's pretty effortless to demonize people anonymously, but actually personally knowing someone that this is unjustly happening to has opened my eyes a bit. I'd like to think that I'm slow to throw around labels and condemnations towards actual people, but I certainly need to do better.

 

Sort of...but she is also a racist and thinks it is funny to pour on the 300K navajos that live here (first).

[zoogs]

Oh, gosh. Tom Brady is not a victim. He just looks like a good guy. That's some serious victimhood fantasy going on there. Let's not kid ourselves about how we react when white men do bad things and when scary, dark-skinned men do bad things.

 

But yeah, Brady absolutely has to answer for that. Nobody made him decide to be an unofficial Trump booster by flashing that MAGA hat back in the Summer of '15. Nobody made him walk out of a press conference when asked about this topic. He chose to do that. And he got some flak, but ultimately the only heat seriously directed at him comes from opposing fans.

 

You didn't suggest this about Cam, but it's out there.

 

Also, the version of this where Cam makes a comment without thinking and it's just an honest mistake is the one where he goes "Oh, sh--" right away. Not sure how closely you followed this story, but he didn't just not do that, he doubled down in a fairly ugly way after being confronted about it privately afterward by the journalist. Cam required this national shaming to see the light. I'm not a pessimist, though -- I believe that he gets it, now. Thankfully he's no longer doubling down. That's a big reason why the reaction is, IMO, crucial. It's not a demonstration of personal sensitivity. It's a global expression of what we find acceptable and what we don't. If we want to push back against all these casually demeaning gender stereotypes we hang onto, it's necessary to be emphatic. That's how people who haven't considered it before start to get it.

[Landlord]

4 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Sort of...but she is also a racist and thinks it is funny to pour on the 300K navajos that live here (first).

 

Yeah...those are both claims without actual evidence. 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

I know you guys don't get it. But it is possible to have respect for women, and minorities, while also finding all of the sensitivity a bit repulsive.... All I'll say for myself is that, I am consistent on that (not a sympathizer).

 

Only thing I don't get is why everyone who supposedly does have that respect wouldn't want to err on the side of oversensitivity rather than the side of callousness and indifference? Like, I'm probably over sensitive to a lot of this stuff. I certainly don't think I have the perfect sort of response to every social issue every time. I'm glad as hell to hedge on the direction of being TOO sympathetic/empathetic/sensitive every single time. I don't know why you wouldn't be? 

 

As far as Tom Brady/Cam Newton, come on B.B. You're not that naive, despite how much I disagree with you. Cam Newton gets called a thug all the time. He gets criticized for his dancing. He gets criticized for the dab. He gets criticized for his smile. The towel over his head. He gets change.org petitions made urging people to sign something that says he should be banned from their stadiums for being unprofessional and classless. He's unapologetically black, and a whole hell of a lot of people hate it. If he was publicly known to be friends or acquaintances with someone like, Al Sharpton, you don't think he'd face unyielding criticism for something like that?

[teachercd]

Just now, Landlord said:

 

Yeah...those are both claims without actual evidence. 

 

 

 

 

Only thing I don't get is why everyone who supposedly does have that respect wouldn't want to err on the side of oversensitivity rather than the side of callousness and indifference? Like, I'm probably over sensitive to a lot of this stuff. I certainly don't think I have the perfect sort of response to every social issue every time. I'm glad as hell to hedge on the direction of being TOO sympathetic/empathetic/sensitive every single time. I don't know why you wouldn't be? 

I suppose maybe someone hacked her account, that does happen.

2 minutes ago, zoogs said:

Oh, gosh. Tom Brady is not a victim. He just looks like a good guy. That's some serious victimhood fantasy going on there. Let's not kid ourselves about how we react when white men do bad things and when scary, dark-skinned men do bad things.

 

But yeah, Brady absolutely has to answer for that. Nobody made him decide to be an unofficial Trump booster by flashing that MAGA hat back in the Summer of '15. Nobody made him walk out of a press conference when asked about this topic. He chose to do that. And he got some flak, but ultimately the only heat seriously directed at him comes from opposing fans.

 

You didn't suggest this about Cam, but it's out there.

 

Also, the version of this where Cam makes a comment without thinking and it's just an honest mistake is the one where he goes "Oh, sh--" right away. Not sure how closely you followed this story, but he didn't just not do that, he doubled down in a fairly ugly way after being confronted about it privately afterward by the journalist. Cam required this national shaming to see the light. I'm not a pessimist, though -- I believe that he gets it, now. Thankfully he's no longer doubling down.

How does one "look like a good guy"?

[B.B. Hemingway]

1 minute ago, zoogs said:

Oh, gosh. Tom Brady is not a victim. He just looks like a good guy. That's some serious victimhood fantasy going on there. Let's not kid ourselves about how we react when white men do bad things and when scary, dark-skinned men do bad things.

 

But yeah, Brady absolutely has to answer for that. Nobody made him decide to be an unofficial Trump booster by flashing that MAGA hat back in the Summer of '15. Nobody made him walk out of a press conference when asked about this topic. He chose to do that. And he got some flak, but ultimately the only heat seriously directed at him comes from opposing fans.

 

You didn't suggest this about Cam, but it's out there.

 

Also, the version of this where Cam makes a comment without thinking and it's just an honest mistake is the one where he goes "Oh, sh--" right away. Not sure how closely you followed this story, but he didn't just not do that, he doubled down in a fairly ugly way after being confronted about it privately afterward by the journalist. Cam required this national shaming to see the light. I'm not a pessimist, though -- I believe that he gets it, now. Thankfully he's no longer doubling down.

 

I wasn't making him out to be a victim. I just think he'd get crushed by the (largely) liberal media. 

 

Still don't understand why he has to answer to any of that? This is a democracy, he has the right to support who he wants politically. Who cares if he's wrong (obviously) and we don't like it. He never endorsed Trump's tapes, or any other of his s#!tty decisions. 

 

Also, Brady is a good guy as far as we know. What has he ever done that we know about? (Don't say deflated footballs....That's gamesmanship).

[zoogs]

I will add that there are ways in which this goes too far the other way. Mob mentality, people get riled up, and some of them are just eager and focused on condemning the individual. Not to say that individuals should always escape culpability, but the much more important point is the general takeaway for everybody. So only a small part of this is about whether Cam (for example) is a bad guy or not. It's about why he shouldn't have made that comment and why that was the wrong thing to say and think.

 

Appreciate the discussion, as always  

 

--

As for Brady having to answer, that's JMHO. Obviously he's gotten completely away with not answering at all, and is still revered. It's a free country and he's free to represent himself in a morally deficient way. He's an athlete with a platform. He used it for Trump, and given the most golden opportunity you could possibly ever have, declined to disavow. 

[Landlord]

Nobody hacked her account. Those three tweets from 2012 are hers. Still, zero indication that she is a racist.

 

 

One tweet explaining that her dad is making racist jokes. An observation without endorsement or condemnation, just explaining what is happening. Nothing racist about saying that someone is saying something racist.

 

One joke, again, talking about her dad making racist jokes, that starts with, "He's the best." Pretty inappropriate to infer much from that. She certainly did not say that she thought the jokes were funny. Is him being the best in relation to the racist jokes? Is it in response to him being a good dad? It was in response to somebody tweeting at her, but we don't know the context of what was said/asked/etc. Nothing racist about that.

 

One retweet of a parody account's tweet that included the 'N' word. If this is racist, then so is listening to hip-hop with the 'n' word (hint, it isn't). 

 

Even if any of that was obviously representative of racism, it was also five years ago. Personally, I was pretty racist five years ago. I'd hate for things I said back then to define me right now. 

 

Of course there's no room for any nuance like that within the social media mob and the crafty/cunning trolls, including the one taking up residence in this thread.

[B.B. Hemingway]

10 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

 

Only thing I don't get is why everyone who supposedly does have that respect wouldn't want to err on the side of oversensitivity rather than the side of callousness and indifference? Like, I'm probably over sensitive to a lot of this stuff. I certainly don't think I have the perfect sort of response to every social issue every time. I'm glad as hell to hedge on the direction of being TOO sympathetic/empathetic/sensitive every single time. I don't know why you wouldn't be? 

 

 

I don't know. Just not who I am I suppose

 

 

 

 

Quote

As far as Tom Brady/Cam Newton, come on B.B. You're not that naive, despite how much I disagree with you. Cam Newton gets called a thug all the time. He gets criticized for his dancing. He gets criticized for the dab. He gets criticized for his smile. The towel over his head. He gets change.org petitions made urging people to sign something that says he should be banned from their stadiums for being unprofessional and classless. He's unapologetically black, and a whole hell of a lot of people hate it. If he was publicly known to be friends or acquaintances with someone like, Al Sharpton, you don't think he'd face unyielding criticism for something like that?

 

I said Tom Brady would take a larger hit publicly, by the media. And I do believe that (referring to if he said what Cam said).

 

(Cam/Al Sharpton) In the media? No I don't think he'd catch as much flack. On social media? He'd get torched. But social media is a damn dumpster fire, filled with a whole lot of s#!tty people.

 

I love Cam, and the way he carries himself. But this issue with cultural appropriation is a problem for all races. (see: Kenyon Martin/Jeremy Lin).

 

Edit: And by cultural appropriation, i meant "issue with other cultures that aren't yours. So not the actual definition of cultural appropriation 

[zoogs]

^Yeah, if that's all the tweets there were from her, it was pretty little. I think there's something you can say about it, anyway, and to her credit she seems to get that. Kudos. It's clear that the dredging up of these tweets was a cynical, disingenuous smear campaign. 

 

But she could have actually been a racist, for example, with a far more deplorable twitter history -- doesn't really change how we should view what Cam said.

[teachercd]

2 minutes ago, Landlord said:

Nobody hacked her account. Those three tweets from 2012 are hers. Still, zero indication that she is a racist.

 

 

One tweet explaining that her dad is making racist jokes. An observation without endorsement or condemnation, just explaining what is happening. Nothing racist about saying that someone is saying something racist.

 

One joke, again, talking about her dad making racist jokes, that starts with, "He's the best." Pretty inappropriate to infer much from that. She certainly did not say that she thought the jokes were funny. Is him being the best in relation to the racist jokes? Is it in response to him being a good dad? It was in response to somebody tweeting at her, but we don't know the context of what was said/asked/etc. Nothing racist about that.

 

One retweet of a parody account's tweet that included the 'N' word. If this is racist, then so is listening to hip-hop with the 'n' word (hint, it isn't). 

 

Even if any of that was obviously representative of racism, it was also five years ago. Personally, I was pretty racist five years ago. I'd hate for things I said back then to define me right now. 

 

Of course there's no room for any nuance like that within the social media mob and the crafty/cunning trolls, including the one taking up residence in this thread.

Hmmm...I am going to toss this out for you and I know you will agree but you will pretend like you don't.

 

I am 100% Polish which means I get to decide what is offense to me as a Polish person.  Not anyone else.

 

Just like you (unless you aren't who you have said you are) don't get to decide what is racist to black people.  Fair enough, right?

 

The things you said "back then" do define you as a person...IF...those things you said 5 years ago hurt someone else.  You don't get to pick.  They do.