'Mansplaining'

[zoogs]

Yeah, "where's the accountability from blacks/brown people" does not apply at all to this discussion. 

 

And it's not really blame. Our society very obviously favors straight white men. It should favor everybody. These are ways that those people whom it doesn't favor try to point out how things are, how they experience the world in different ways than the ones for whom it (globally) works best. We owe our fellow man (and woman, and human) a listening ear. And really, some relatively low effort from our part to try and not be part of the deal. 

 

Like, don't be that guy who assumes a woman doesn't know what a computer is. For example.

 

https://thereisonlyr.com/dumb-widdle-girls-in-tech-c73647238dc4

 

[Enhance]

1 hour ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

Personally, I get nothing. Although, it does get old that most of society's problems are blamed on the white person, or the male (I'm both). There's no accountability from those that find themselves in poor situations. But the "accountability" discussion is for a different thread, because it certain doesn't apply here with this topic.

I don't want to get too off topic, but there's a book called "White Rage" that shines a decent light on some themes you mention here in your post. Would be happy to split out another discussion thread to dive into this further.

 

A (summarized and paraphrased) example from the book: once slavery ended, blacks tried moving en masse to other parts of the country to escape their previous owners and the horrendous conditions in the south. One of those places was Detroit. But, the city enacted several codes and laws essentially limiting where blacks could live and what kinds of jobs they could have. Blacks were basically forced to live in one part of Detroit for a long time that was low-income and poverty stricken, which often breeds drugs and crime. To this day, that same part of Detroit is predominantly black and blistered with crime/drugs.

 

Heck, there were some counties in southern states that still had Jim Crow laws on the books as recently as 2013.

 

So yes, accountability is a concern, but that ignores a lot of other hot garbage America has inflicted on minorities.

[Moiraine]

One thing I'll never understand is why people get defensive about this stuff. I've never gotten defensive about anything said about what White people have done in the past (e.g. with Native Americans, slavery). I just can't even relate to that feeling.

 

The other thing I can't relate to is hearing about people who have experienced things you haven't and jumping straight to the conclusion that they're either making things up or playing the victim.

[Enhance]

This may be a bit blunt but, in many cases, being offended and/or being offensive comes down to a lack of knowledge or being uneducated in a particular way.

 

But, I also believe it's disingenuous to blame whole groups of people for a problem or suggest whole groups of people are culpable for a problem. We often generalize because it's easier and quicker than qualifying.

[Moiraine]

1 hour ago, Enhance said:

This may be a bit blunt but, in many cases, being offended and/or being offensive comes down to a lack of knowledge or being uneducated in a particular way.

 

But, I also believe it's disingenuous to blame whole groups of people for a problem or suggest whole groups of people are culpable for a problem. We often generalize because it's easier and quicker than qualifying.

 

 

I think more often than not what happens is a group (let's say Blacks, or women) says "this problem still exists" and then the people who are not in that group (non-Blacks, non-women) get defensive.

 

I know there are people who just say that White people suck and/or men suck, but I see defensiveness all the time when it comes to people merely informing others that a problem exists.

 

It's much more of a problem for minorities (especially Blacks) than for women. When Black people "complain" everyone likes to tell them if they would just work hard everything would be fine, or "it's just a cultural problem so fix your culture," or "What about Black on Black crime?" or "What about Asians?" or "Quit being divisive!"

 

I feel like with Obama as president maybe Black people felt slightly more willing to say that there was a problem, and then they just got attacked. This so called divisiveness I've seen was not caused by Obama or by Black people. It was caused by defensive people.

[Enhance]

Good points. I'd only add, from my perspective, I think defensiveness ties into a lack of knowledge in many cases.

 

In my mind, there are sometimes two reasons someone would deny something is an issue: they either blatantly refuse to accept there could be a problem or they simply don't know (i.e. uneducated) a problem still exists. 

 

Using my previous example, I've seen people suggest on numerous occasions that black Americans should be more accountable for things like black on black crime, poverty in black communities, high number of blacks in prison, etc. While, yes, every community should work from within to improve itself, this line of thinking seems to often ignore reality. Some southern counties had Jim Crow era laws on the books this decade. America shunted and squeezed black Americans trying to escape the south into poor, crime-stricken areas in major cities and basically said 'stay there.' You don't just undo hundreds of years of slavery and racism in a short amount of time or by telling the victims 'hey, fix yourself, kthxbye.'

 

I think we can draw some similarities back to mansplaining. Men have dominated this world really since men and women existed. Women are still fighting for opportunities, equal pay, etc. We can't just undo hundreds if not thousands of years of certain ideologies in a short time, but I think it's easy for some men in this situation to ignore or deny there could be a problem because they're unfamiliar with what it's like to be a woman and they don't understand the situation.

 

Edit - While reading this back, it seems like I'm suggesting denial of an issue is always wrong. That seems a bit disingenuous so I've adjusted the language a bit. Sometimes, something may really not be an issue. I guess I would add a caveat though - if someone says something is an issue, perhaps the best response is to understand why they think it is and vet out their opinion. I don't think that always happens.

[Moiraine]

I agree that it comes from ignorance. But why do ignorant people jump to the conclusion that people are exaggerating or lying?

I'm not Black. I haven't known a lot of Black people in my life. When I see lots of Black people speaking out about their plight, I assume there is a real problem.

[Enhance]

I think because it violates or shuffles their notion of reality. You've just contradicted their perception and, if this board is any indication, contradiction often leads to disputation.

[B.B. Hemingway]

Wow. A lot to get into here. Look forward to doing so when it's not bedtime....

[B.B. Hemingway]

Alright. I don't think it's ignorant of a person to expect some personal accountability from others. Nor do I think it means you're uneducated on a subject because you've come away with a different opinion than someone else. We clearly differ on what we believe is the largest problem facing black citizens, but I pride myself in consuming thoughts that clash with my own, and entertaining them to the point of challenging my own beliefs. So I am neither ignorant, or completely uneducated on the subject.

 

Now, I think it's fair to say that there is a portion of the black community (imo a majority) that hasn't put forth enough effort to better their own situations, or the communities they live in. There is an unhealthy victim-mentality, and an embedded dependence on government aide. This dependency on government aide isn't a 'black' problem. There are a number of families in my community (probably 55-60% white) that choose this lifestyle as well. But I do think the dependency issue is a prevalent one in the black community. There is a theory (I guess proven) that poverty is a legitimate reason for someone to engage in drugs, and criminal activity. Which, I obviously find to be bulls#!t. Why should your standard of living, morally free you of consequences for your actions?

 

But then again, when's the last time you heard the media criticize a minority community? You just don't see it (outside of the dreadful, Fox News). As an example, I believe the most significant problem facing the black community is their inner city culture, and the way they openly embrace it (i.e. rap music). This thread is largely based on the disrespect of women, and who disrespects women more than those in their culture? Listen to the culture's music, or look up the statistics of black men leaving the mother's of their children with the incredible burden of raising children on their own, in a lot of instances, in poverty. It happens at an incredible rate. Yet, little to no public criticism. All of us should be deservedly exposed to criticism, yet the black community is often coddled by the left (I know that's not your/their intentions), "they're just victims of the 'system', living in circumstances that are no fault of their own (or largely at fault of their own, in my opinion)." Let me ask you a question. Who has done more for the betterment of the black community since the civil rights movement? The government, or black citizens themselves? The answer to that question is hit-you-in-the-face obvious.

 

Now, none of this means systemic injustice doesn't exist. It surely plays a role. None of this means that the black community doesn't face a steeper climb than others. In a lot of areas, some of them do. But it also doesn't mean that they can escape all personal responsibility. They don't get to escape fault for their conditions (those who are in poor conditions). 

 

I'm all inclusive on the issue of personal responsibility. You get out of this life, what you put into it. A lack of personal responsibility is found throughout every race, but the black community seems to be the only ones that get a pass.

[Landlord]

8 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

I'm all inclusive on the issue of personal responsibility. You get out of this life, what you put into it. A lack of personal responsibility is found throughout every race, but the black community seems to be the only ones that get a pass.

 

I think this is pretty problematic. A lack of personal responsibility is found throughout every race? Sure. Black community gets a pass? What kind of a pass? Certainly not the pass that makes them less likely to be pulled over by the cops, or charged more harshly for the same offense? Certainly not the pass that gives them a better chance at getting a job or getting into college with the same qualifications as whites? 

 

I mean maybe you kind of have a point as far as a "pass" in regards to the broader cultural narrative always being on the side of "it's not your fault" or "you're a victim". But what good does that actually do? What utilitarian function does that have on the lives of black people? How are they impacted by it tangibly? White people are still the race that gets a pass when it comes to things that really matter. Things that can ruin or save your life. You line up a black and a white person with equal amounts of work ethic, potential, personality, determination and ability, the white person still has advantage after advantage after advantage in real-life scenarios.

 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

I believe the most significant problem facing the black community is their inner city culture, and the way they openly embrace it (i.e. rap music).

 

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

7 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

I think this is pretty problematic. A lack of personal responsibility is found throughout every race? Sure. Black community gets a pass? What kind of a pass? Certainly not the pass that makes them less likely to be pulled over by the cops, or charged more harshly for the same offense? Certainly not the pass that gives them a better chance at getting a job or getting into college with the same qualifications as whites? 

 

I mean maybe you kind of have a point as far as a "pass" in regards to the broader cultural narrative always being on the side of "it's not your fault" or "you're a victim". But what good does that actually do? What utilitarian function does that have on the lives of black people? How are they impacted by it tangibly? White people are still the race that gets a pass when it comes to things that really matter. Things that can ruin or save your life. You line up a black and a white person with equal amounts of work ethic, potential, personality, determination and ability, the white person still has advantage after advantage after advantage in real-life scenarios.

 

 

 

 

It doesn't do any good. That's my point. It hurts them more than anything. They've long settled into that victim mentality, and that's in large part (again, in my opinion) because they aren't held accountable. They get that pass. 

 

Also, (and I know you passionately disagree) don't you think that part of their perception in the eyes of police is, at least in part, their fault? Again, that hip-hop/gang-banging culture they've embraced comes with some baggage.

 

And yes, Harvey; "most significant" was a poor chose of words referencing that being the largest problem. However, I stand by the point that embracing that culture the way most of them do, contributes to their problems.

 

[zoogs]

Wowzer.

[B.B. Hemingway]

4 minutes ago, zoogs said:

Wowzer.

 

I know, right

[zoogs]

I hope there comes a day where you can look back at all this, shake your head, and wonder "What on earth was I saying?" 

 

You're a reasonable guy, and I've faith it will happen