Socialism or Capitialism Preference Poll

[TGHusker]

I commented on this Axios article in the Dem rebuild thread and wanted to do a poll on HB that matches the Axios poll.  HB only allows 3 questions however.

My 3rd question, I noted European socialism and not Venezuela socialism as I wanted to take the sting and stink of what is happening in Venz out of the equation and discussion. That is more of

a dictatorship situation.

 

My comment/question to the younger group - is it true you feel socialism is a preferable system then communism? If so, why.   The older group can answer as well but I'd like to see esp the mindset of  those under 40 - if possible maybe they can identify themselves as such so we gain an understanding of their insight.  I'm 63 and so socialism has the sigma of one step from being a part of the red scare - which is an unfair characteristic.   We cannot confuse socialism as an economic system vs democracy as a political system.  Communism on the other hand married together both the economic system and the political into one system that controlled both economics and political thought.  So those of us who are older, we can't make that unfair leap based on the true threat we felt

with the Cold War. 

    In the USA, we've not had a true capitalism system for close to a century.  We've had a hybrid system of sorts ever since FDR and it  has increased since esp expanding since the Great Society implementation under LBJ. Really though out our history as we had the monopoly busting actions under Teddy Roosevelt and other ways the govt tried to manipulate the economy via bank reform, gold standards, paper money, etc)

 

This tide will be difficult for the Repubs to turn back.   If they keep moving towards alt right positions they will  push the younger voter more and more

in the opposite direction.  The Repubs are loosing the message with the younger generation. 

 

 

https://www.axios.com/exclusive-poll-young-americans-embracing-socialism-b051907a-87a8-4f61-9e6e-0db75f7edc4a.html

 

Quote

 

Generation Z has a more positive view of the word "socialism" than previous generations, and — along with millennials — are more likely to embrace socialistic policies and principles than past generations, according to a new Harris Poll given exclusively to Axios.

Why it matters: The word "socialism" does not carry the same stigma it did in the past, now that it has been resurrected by celebrity politicians like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Young people's political views often change as they grow older, but their support for socialistic policies is a sign that the old rules of politics are changing fast.

Gen Z and millennials are projected to make up 37% of the electorate in 2020, and what they're looking for in a presidential candidate is shifting.

• The top three voting issues for Gen Z, according to the Harris poll, are mass shootings, racial equality, and immigration policy and treatment of immigrants.
• Millennials' top issues are access to health care, global warming/climate change and mass shootings.
• Gen X's top issues are: access to health care, terrorism/national security and the national debt — the same top issues for boomers and older.

 

•  

[knapplc]

I Don't Know should be an answer for each question.

 

I can answer 1 and 2. I can't answer 3 because I've never lived in anything but this system.

[Ratt Mhule]

I dont even know how to answer question three because I dont know what countries you are talking about. Most European countries are social democracies, not socialist countries. If you dont know the difference than you need to do some research. 

 

As to question 1, every civilized nation in the world offers healthcare as a basic human right to their citizens. The US spends more money and has a lower life expectancy than many of these countries. Healthcare is a right, not a product. 

 

As to question 2, They absolutely need to find a solution to the student loan crisis. Its the highest it has ever been and young people are not able to contribute to the economy. They are not buying houses and living with parents longer because they are crippled with debt from student loans. Does that mean free tuition? Not necessarily. 

[NM11046]

I think this is interesting - maybe too stringent for what my beilefs truly are.  Sort of a blend.  

 

Pete Buttieige had a great interview with either Preet Bharra or Jake Tapper this weekend talking about the way that the definition of “socialism” varies greatly by generation. And the bad connotation often is with older folks who associate it negatively with diff countries during the cold war, and of course the fact that its used as a firebrand by the right.  

[ZRod]

Question 1: Something needs to change. As has been mentioned time and time again, every other developed nation has figured out a way except US. After experiencing a serious, sudden, and very much unexpected medical condition over a year ago (for which I'm still going through relatively expensive treatments) my eyes have really opened to this issue. I'm extremely fortunate. I work for a large corporations so my premiums are low, deductible is stiff because of my HDHP plan, but with my salary I can afford it without issue. Other than a minor surgery it's really only cost me upgrades I wanted to do my car. Others are not so lucky. Paying the bills I had with no insurance would have bankrupted many people. An MRI alone could devistate a family scraping by and that is absurd! We need to find a way for those who are less fortunate. I don't mind paying a little more in taxes so others can live a better life getting the care they need, without financial worries. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness don't come with poor health

 

 

Question 2: I think this is something we should strive for. Free post secondary education. In this world there are fewer and fewer jobs that require no education or certification after high school. College isn't for everyone so it should be open to trade schools as well. Right now we can't afford to pay for everyone, but I think it's a goal we should work towards as a nation. Education is the single most important thing to me. An educated population is a nation's greatest resource and defense. You will never convince me to believe otherwise.

 

Question 3: European countries and Venezuela are completely different. I would love to have the amount vacation that Europeans have. We work far too hard in this country to save money for when we are too old to really enjoy it. I don't think that's what you meant though.

[TGHusker]

3 hours ago, knapplc said:

I Don't Know should be an answer for each question.

 

I can answer 1 and 2. I can't answer 3 because I've never lived in anything but this system.

I've added -  I don't know

[Danny Bateman]

Since socialism has already become the go-to boogeyman for the current GOP to use against Democrats, I'll merely ask this:
 

Do we discuss the failures and flaws of capitalism enough? We sure do a lot of this for socialism, but capitalism badly needs reformed in our country to push power away from the ultra-wealthy and back to the people.

[methodical]

1). Yes, it's a duh for the country, it'll save money in the long run, and it's long overdue.  The lives and welfare of fellow citizens shouldn't be held hostage based on how much they earn and getting sick shouldn't ever result in financial ruin.

 

2). Yes, for public research institutions.  A Degree is a requirement anymore for even some of the s#!ttiest of entry level jobs, but having a well educated population benefits almost everyone.  Long gone are the days where you can walk into somewhere and slap your resume down, hope they like you and get training on the job.  That has been pushed onto the public.

 

3). Europe is nice and some of those countries do some smart things in their public policy... I guess the blanket dismissal of any policies that originate there comes from this country's puritan roots, but you treat this like it's mutually exclusive, it's not. There are things the government can, should, and would do better than private companies.  Those things are in best interest of the country such as keeping a healthy and educated workforce, researching things for the common good (like cures to diseases), funding space exploration, building and maintaining infrastructure, advancing future technological advancements, regulating monopolies, keeping a well trained and appropriately equipped military, running and building prisons (and actually working to reform inmates that can be rather then just throwing the book at the poorest among us), providing national security and foreign intelligence etc.  So I voted for European socialism, partially to be contrarian to all the conservatives on here, but also because capitalism we have now isn't working for lots of people and it's not because the world changed and their manufacturing jobs got ripped out from under them, its because we've been in a class war for the last 30 years and it's taken away economic security and social mobility for lots of folks.  Dismissing public policies out of hand without actually looking at each one and doing a cost benefit analysis is stupid and we need to be better and smarter than that.  One blanket ideology or another isn't a solution to all this county's or the world's problems, but our political environment now allows for no nuance.  I want to see policy positions backed up by studies on what would do the most good for the most people, we never get that, just idiotic talking points usually backed by fearmongering.

 

 

 

[TGHusker]

1 hour ago, ZRod said:

Question 1: Something needs to change. As has been mentioned time and time again, every other developed nation has figured out a way except US. After experiencing a serious, sudden l, and very much unexpected medical condition over a year ago, for which I'm still going through relatively expensive treatments, my eyes have really opened to this issue. I'm extremely fortunate. I work for a large corporations so my premiums are low, deductible is stiff because of my HDHP plan, but with my salary I can afford it without issue. Other than a minor surgery it's really only cost me upgrades I wanted to do my car. Others are not so lucky. Paying the bills I had with no insurance would have bankrupted many people. An MRI alone could devistate a family scraping by and that is absurd! We need to find a way for those who are less fortunate. I don't mind paying a little more in taxes so others can live a better life getting the care they need, without financial worries. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness don't come with poor health

 

 

Question 2: I think this is something we should strive for. Free post secondary education. In this world there are fewer and fewer jobs that require no education or certification after high school. College isn't for everyone so it should be open to trade schools as well. Right now we can't afford to pay for everyone, but I think it's a goal we should work towards as a nation. Education is the single most important thing to me. An educated population is a nationa's greatest resource and defense. You will never convince me otherwise.

 

Question 3: European countries and Venezuela are completely different. I would love to have the amount vacation that Europeans have. We work far too hard in this country to save money for when we are too old to really enjoy it. I don't think that's what you meant though.

Regarding # 3 - that vacation time is a part of the Dem Socialism in most European countries.  It has been said that the happiest people on earth are typically the Scandinavian group of countries  - Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland that are strongly socialistic but have a lot of 'life amenities' such as vacation time that adds to the quality of life.  I think another factor that helps is that it may reduce the personal stress level some - if it is the responsibility of individual  Americans to provide for themselves in virtually every area of life  we have the stress to go along with it - the price of our individualistic culture.  With cradle to grave protections provided by some govts (along wt high tax rates), the Dem Soc countries may have a reduced individual stress load - the positive consequence of paying high taxes and transferring some of the responsibility and risk to the govt.    There is a trade off with both systems.

 

Regarding # 2 - I think VoTech, Trade School, Community college should be an extension of K-12.  In the past, a HS degree stood for something and you could get a good job still - but not anymore.  If we considered education to not be over until a student finishes 2 years of trade school or community college (for either an associates degree or prep for a BA/BS degree), then I think we would better serve our students, businesses, and improve our national competitiveness.  Okla has a great VoTech system and many high schoolers graduate wt a HS degree and

a good portion of a VoTech degree (if not a completed VT degree). 

 

Reagarding # 1 - agree something must change - it is getting too expensive in the current system.   

[TGHusker]

4 minutes ago, methodical said:

1). Yes, it's a duh for the country, it'll save money in the long run, and it's long overdue.  The lives and welfare of fellow citizens shouldn't be held hostage based on how much they earn and getting sick shouldn't ever result in financial ruin.

 

2). Yes, for public research institutions.  A Degree is a requirement anymore for even some of the s#!ttiest of entry level jobs, but having a well educated population benefits almost everyone.  Long gone are the days where you can walk into somewhere and slap your resume down, hope they like you and get training on the job that has been pushed onto the public.

 

3). Europe is nice and some of those countries do some smart things in their public policy... I guess the blanket dismissal of any policies that originate there comes from this country's puritan roots, but you treat this like it's mutually exclusive, it's not. There are things the government can, should, and would do better than private companies.  Those things are in best interest of the country such as keeping a healthy and educated workforce, researching things for the common good (like cures to diseases), funding space exploration, building and maintaining infrastructure, advancing future technological advancements, regulating monopolies, keeping a well trained and appropriately equipped military, running and building prisons (and actually working to reform inmates that can be rather then just throwing the book at the poorest among us), providing national security and foreign intelligence etc.  So I voted for European socialism, partially to be contrarian to all the conservatives on here, but also because capitalism we have now isn't working for lots of people and it's not because the world changed and their manufacturing jobs got ripped out from under them, its because we've been in a class war for the last 30 years and it's taken away economic security and social mobility for lots of folks.  Dismissing public policies out of hand without actually looking at each one and doing a cost benefit analysis is stupid and we need to be better and smarter than that.  One blanket ideology or another isn't a solution to all this county's or the world's problems, but our political environment now allows for no nuance.  I want to see policy positions backed up by studies on what would do the most good for the most people, we never get that, just idiotic talking points usually backed by fearmongering.

 

 

 

I think the current system has too many built in 'vested interest groups' that keep us from exploring other options.  Thus the fearmongering from all of those who have 'card in the game' in the present system.  By saying that  - it doesn't mean they are 'bogeymen' or bad guys either - this is just the system they were allowed to play in.  But times change and from time to time we need to evaluate where we are.  Those evaluation times come in the form of elections.  2020 could be a watershed moment in this evaluation process. If it doesn't occur in 2020 (Trump wins due to Dems overplaying their run to the left), then I think it will occur in 2024.  Wise conservatives should be advised to get ahead of the rolling ball by developing policies in which they can be a part of the discussions & help shape policy and not left out in the cold - or getting rolled over by trying to resist the growing snowball movement that we see occurring now in our national discussion.

[TGHusker]

OK - I've added a couple of more options on the poll question for clarity. Not sure if you can go back and change your vote or not. 

[Ratt Mhule]

2 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

OK - I've added a couple of more options on the poll question for clarity. Not sure if you can go back and change your vote or not. 

 

I saw you added only for catastrophic coverage for healthcare. A big part of health care is preventative care. Your insurance company usually affords a patient one “free” physical every year. That entails a visit to your primary doctor and some bloodwork (cbc, lipid panel and cmp) are usually covered for this physical. Problem is, if the blood work comes back abbormal and the doctor orders more tests to see why, these are not covered. 

 

For example, someones liver enzymes come back elevated. Doctor wants to know why, so they order an ultrasound of the liver. Ultrasound shows fatty liver disease. Easy solution to this complication: diet and exercise. Problem is the ultrasound is not covered so these patients do not want to get it because ultrasounds cost between $700-$1,000 plus a radiologist reading fee. So now the patient doesnt get what the doctor needs because its too expensive and years later fatty liver turns to cirrhosis. Now the treatments become expensive because this is a chronic illness. With universal healthcare the patient gets the ultrasound knowing its covered and begins diet and exercise to treat the FLD and the expensive treatments for cirrhosis never happen.

 

Thats why the costs are so high in this country, preventative care is s#!t. And then when its too late it super expensive to treat chronic illness. 

[RedDenver]

I had trouble with #3 as there's no "Who gives a crap about ideology as long as the economy is working" option, so I voted "No".

 

@TGHusker, if you're interested in the differences between socialism and Communism, I posted a video by Dr. Richard Wolff in which he discusses how socialism split into Communism and how socialism has changed since the end of the Cold War. It's in the first post of this thread:

 

[TGHusker]

1 hour ago, Frott Scost said:

 

I saw you added only for catastrophic coverage for healthcare. A big part of health care is preventative care. Your insurance company usually affords a patient one “free” physical every year. That entails a visit to your primary doctor and some bloodwork (cbc, lipid panel and cmp) are usually covered for this physical. Problem is, if the blood work comes back abbormal and the doctor orders more tests to see why, these are not covered. 

 

For example, someones liver enzymes come back elevated. Doctor wants to know why, so they order an ultrasound of the liver. Ultrasound shows fatty liver disease. Easy solution to this complication: diet and exercise. Problem is the ultrasound is not covered so these patients do not want to get it because ultrasounds cost between $700-$1,000 plus a radiologist reading fee. So now the patient doesnt get what the doctor needs because its too expensive and years later fatty liver turns to cirrhosis. Now the treatments become expensive because this is a chronic illness. With universal healthcare the patient gets the ultrasound knowing its covered and begins diet and exercise to treat the FLD and the expensive treatments for cirrhosis never happen.

 

Thats why the costs are so high in this country, preventative care is s#!t. And then when its too late it super expensive to treat chronic illness. 

ok  I added a choice for Preventative, Routine, Diagnostic  - So 3 yes possibilities -  Everything, Catastrophic only, routine only - just in case we don't want to jump full bore into 100% coverage paid by the govt

[TGHusker]

1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

I had trouble with #3 as there's no "Who gives a crap about ideology as long as the economy is working" option, so I voted "No".

 

@TGHusker, if you're interested in the differences between socialism and Communism, I posted a video by Dr. Richard Wolff in which he discusses how socialism split into Communism and how socialism has changed since the end of the Cold War. It's in the first post of this thread:

 

I'll add your choice    & yes  Socialism has evolved even as capitalism has.