Progressive politics and where they go from here

[Danny Bateman]

Just thought I'd create this per a suggestion as another place to maybe discuss things more salient to progressives. 
 

I know some of you think I'm some super moderate Sanders hater or whatever but that really isn't the case. Perhaps I haven't expressed this view enough, but I really do think our country is going to enter a period of increasingly progressive ideas and reforms and I for one welcome it.

 

Where we differ is that I don't view Biden nearly as skeptically as some of you. I do think he can be a very effective bridge from the old guard to this new era. He's a consensus builder and he understands politics. Redistricting is coming and this election will have an outsize impact on whether we see more gerrymandered maps and entrenchment of minority rule or fairer representation and better politics. 

 

I know he's unpalatable for a lot of you. But he's got Bernie and Warren and AOC on board and will have wind from more progressive generations at his back. If we screw around and re-elect Trump Republicans will do everything in their power to make sure everything you want gets further and further out of reach. Biden will take some prodding but will work with you to achieve it. The choice could not be easier.

 

This isn't meant to be another thread to bicker about current options. I just felt the need to share my perspective to lead things off. Hopefully this can be a good hub for progressive stuff. Time's yours.

[TGHusker]

As more center right, I see the country also moving that direction.  And I think - rightly so.  We can no longer do govt as we have over the past 30-40 years.  The society has changed.  Govt has to change with it.  Change takes time.  My hope is that "Trumpism" can be totally discredited and buried wt the election and with that a rebirth of a more compassionate and forward looking conservative movement.  Yes I know this thread is about progressives but there has got to be a change on the conservative side.  Compassion has to be brought to the forefront of that movement and get back to the idea of efficient government  which should be at the heart of the conservative movement.  Efficient doesn't mean you slash and burn needed programs - that would not be compassionate. It means recognizing the needs of the society and finding creative ways of making it happen. There are so many things that conservatives and progressive could work together on by bringing their collective strengths & visions to the common table- but they have to get out of their respective silos to do so.  The politics of personal destruction has to stop.  The first step is to remove tRump.

[RedDenver]

I'm hopeful that we'll get over our weird fascination with equating capitalism with freedom or liberty or America, and just do what's best for our society. For me that means things like actually using anti-trust laws and not allowing monopolies (like power or cable companies) and also not relying on competitive markets (or even worse "free" markets) for things that cannot be priced (like healthcare).

 

I also hope we can get back to valuing the common good and doing real government works like highways, bridges, harbors, etc.

[Danny Bateman]

29 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

I'm hopeful that we'll get over our weird fascination with equating capitalism with freedom or liberty or America, and just do what's best for our society. For me that means things like actually using anti-trust laws and not allowing monopolies (like power or cable companies) and also not relying on competitive markets (or even worse "free" markets) for things that cannot be priced (like healthcare).

 

I also hope we can get back to valuing the common good and doing real government works like highways, bridges, harbors, etc.

 

Agreed on all acounts!

 

We should return to anti-trust if only to foster fairer competition. Pseudo-monopolies like Amazon, Google and telecom companies freak me out.

 

I'm OK with keeping a lot of market aspects to thing but I've never understood the argument for something that is necessary for life like healthcare can be properly priced by free markets with little intervetnion.

 

Trump's attempts at infrastructure have been pitiful. 

[RedDenver]

3 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said:

Agreed on all acounts!

 

We should return to anti-trust if only to foster fairer competition. Pseudo-monopolies like Amazon, Google and telecom companies freak me out.

 

I'm OK with keeping a lot of market aspects to thing but I've never understood the argument for something that is necessary for life like healthcare can be properly priced by free markets with little intervetnion.

 

Trump's attempts at infrastructure have been pitiful. 

I agree. Sometimes markets work great, but sometimes they don't. I think concepts like socialism and capitalism are great for giving simple concepts and outlines to our crazily complex world, but they fail when people try to apply them as if simple concepts can somehow account for all the variety of life and the changes over time. Another poster (TG? JJ?) said that America was strongest when we had a hybrid economy, and I strongly agree with that.

[Danny Bateman]

18 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

I agree. Sometimes markets work great, but sometimes they don't. I think concepts like socialism and capitalism are great for giving simple concepts and outlines to our crazily complex world, but they fail when people try to apply them as if simple concepts can somehow account for all the variety of life and the changes over time. Another poster (TG? JJ?) said that America was strongest when we had a hybrid economy, and I strongly agree with that.

 

It worked quite well for decades following FDR.

 

Unfortunately these things are also easily to demagogue against as well which can impede critical thinking and analysis of the merits and drawbacks of each. Personally I find Trump's diatribes against the evils of socialism equally as vexing as the reactionary leftists meming about death to capitalism. 

[TGHusker]

13 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

It worked quite well for decades following FDR.

 

Unfortunately these things are also easily to demagogue against as well which can impede critical thinking and analysis of the merits and drawbacks of each. Personally I find Trump's diatribes against the evils of socialism equally as vexing as the reactionary leftists meming about death to capitalism. 

agree.  We know that a true free enterprise system has not existed for some time in our country. Enterprise wtout some govt regulations is no longer a workable concept. But I've seen many  conservatives & capitalists still act as though it is.  In the same way, the way this country was founded and what is in our collective DNA, we could never be a true 'collective' society. Capitalism and freedom of thought drive and inspire opportunity and creativity which is always needed in a complex society like ours.  Alt capitalism and alt socialism won't work. 

Conservatives need to get off the idea that every tax cut is great and every regulation is bad.   That concept is not workable.  It is time conservatives recognize that certain societal issues can only be solved by the govt or govt/private partnership.  Conservatives should lend a hand in driving efficiencies into those programs. Working wt progressive to identify priorities and find workable solutions.  Govt isn't bad.  Even big govt isn't bad. What is bad is inefficient govt and govt that tramples on individual rights. 

[RedDenver]

Kyle Kulinski talks about how "the left" and the Dem party aren't ideologically the same, and how close the Dem and Repub parties are in ideology. If you don't like Kulinski, just watch the clip of Obama discussing how close the Dem and Repub parties are, which starts at about the 0:38 mark.

 

 

[FrantzHardySwag]

46 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Kyle Kulinski talks about how "the left" and the Dem party aren't ideologically the same, and how close the Dem and Repub parties are in ideology. If you don't like Kulinski, just watch the clip of Obama discussing how close the Dem and Repub parties are, which starts at about the 0:38 mark.

 

 

I remember reading a 538 article about this, I'll try and find it when I have time. Obama aligned with a majority of the Democratic Party in terms of voters (a small fraction thought he was too liberal, a small fraction thought he was too conservative) - As well as being smack dab in the middle policy wise compared to the democratic senators and congressmen. I mean isn't this just how the system works, it's a spectrum. Obama as a moderate Dem probably aligns just as close to moderate Republicans as he does with the far left. I think the Biden of today is slightly left of Obama. I guess that's my way of saying moderate D's and moderate R's aren't so far away from each other, and Kulinski has a point. But the gap between Trump and Biden, on Immigration, Climate Change, Taxes, Health Care, Gun Control - it's pretty significant.

 

I know the Democratic Party is right of where progressives want it to be, but if that's where the majority of the party aligns. There isn't much for progressives to do other than vote progressive down ballot candidates and continue to try and push the party their direction. 

[RedDenver]

4 minutes ago, FrantzHardySwag said:

I remember reading a 538 article about this, I'll try and find it when I have time. Obama aligned with a majority of the Democratic Party in terms of voters (a small fraction thought he was too liberal, a small fraction thought he was too conservative) - As well as being smack dab in the middle policy wise compared to the democratic senators and congressmen. I mean isn't this just how the system works, it's a spectrum. Obama as a moderate Dem probably aligns just as close to moderate Republicans as he does with the far left. I think the Biden of today is slightly left of Obama. I guess that's my way of saying moderate D's and moderate R's aren't so far away from each other, and Kulinski has a point. But the gap between Trump and Biden, on Immigration, Climate Change, Taxes, Health Care, Gun Control - it's pretty significant.

 

I know the Democratic Party is right of where progressives want it to be, but if that's where the majority of the party aligns. There isn't much for progressives to do other than vote progressive down ballot candidates and continue to try and push the party their direction. 

I think there's a difference of where Obama campaigned, which I agree was much more in the middle of Dem voters, and where Obama governed, which was more to the right especially on economic issues.

[FrantzHardySwag]

3 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

I think there's a difference of where Obama campaigned, which I agree was much more in the middle of Dem voters, and where Obama governed, which was more to the right especially on economic issues.

 I think the best course of action for the progressive wing of the Dem party, is to take every inch they can right now, their time will come. It sounds like a lot of progressives have distain for the Democratic Party, you almost see as much venom from progressives thrown at moderate dems as you do thrown at people like Trump and McConnell. Play the game, keep voting in down ballot progressives, take the little progressive steps from candidates like Biden, and keep moving forward. The majority of the Dem party right now is Older Black and White voters, who lean more moderate. 

[RedDenver]

28 minutes ago, FrantzHardySwag said:

 I think the best course of action for the progressive wing of the Dem party, is to take every inch they can right now, their time will come. It sounds like a lot of progressives have distain for the Democratic Party, you almost see as much venom from progressives thrown at moderate dems as you do thrown at people like Trump and McConnell. Play the game, keep voting in down ballot progressives, take the little progressive steps from candidates like Biden, and keep moving forward. The majority of the Dem party right now is Older Black and White voters, who lean more moderate. 

I agree. I'd add that the disdain the Dem party has for progressives is almost as much as the right and Repubs have for progressives.

[FrantzHardySwag]

2 hours ago, RedDenver said:

I agree. I'd add that the disdain the Dem party has for progressives is almost as much as the right and Repubs have for progressives.

Yeah gone are the days where people hear each other out - its all toxic now. I think the Young portion of the democratic party is pretty unified in their progressive ways, that's men, woman, white, people of color - they just have to realize transitions are gradual - it won't happen overnight. Keep taking the small victories and they'll add up. 

[RedDenver]

1 hour ago, FrantzHardySwag said:

Yeah gone are the days where people hear each other out - its all toxic now. I think the Young portion of the democratic party is pretty unified in their progressive ways, that's men, woman, white, people of color - they just have to realize transitions are gradual - it won't happen overnight. Keep taking the small victories and they'll add up. 

Problem is in keeping them from becoming jaded and uncaring and giving up.

[DevoHusker]

13 hours ago, FrantzHardySwag said:

Yeah gone are the days where people hear each other out - its all toxic now. I think the Young portion of the democratic party is pretty unified in their progressive ways, that's men, woman, white, people of color - they just have to realize transitions are gradual - it won't happen overnight. Keep taking the small victories and they'll add up. 

 

FHS- do you think it is possible for Progressives to create a separate party within the left? Like the Green Party in the UK...?