Economy

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

I'm confused as to what is being discussed here.  Can you explain more?

Not sure how to make it any clearer.  Start from the top and work down.  Get us off dependence on China and the rest could be be trickle down effects (in a good way) 

[RedDenver]

9 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Not sure how to make it any clearer.  Start from the top and work down.  Get us off dependence on China and the rest could be be trickle down effects (in a good way) 

Isn't the whole reason that manufacturing left the US is due to labor costs? How is that going to be addressed? And how are corporations going to be forced to relocate back to the US (government regulation?)?

[BigRedBuster]

45 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Not sure how to make it any clearer.  Start from the top and work down.  Get us off dependence on China and the rest could be be trickle down effects (in a good way) 

That's kind of what I thought they were getting at.  It's saying move it to the US, and more importantly, Mexico and Central America.  That's a good thought. But, there are some major issues that need to be addressed before that can be successful.

 

a) China is a major manufacturer in large part because they have a huge amount of raw materials.  Mexico and Central America doesn't have that.  Where is that going to come from?

 

b) Governmental stability.  This is huge.  In China, with all their faults, the government has control of the country and the labor plays along with that.  That isn't the case with these areas.  For instance, anyone traveling to China, can be assured mostly for their safety and being able to work with people in the area.  As a business person, would you feel more comfortable traveling to China or Honduras for work?

 

c). The infrastructure in China is built for manufacturing.  That isn't the case in Mexico or Central America.

 

Central America has some of the most dangerous and wild west areas of the western Hemisphere.  Is a company going to feel comfortable pumping billions of dollars into a country that has no control over society, crime and overall organization for a business to thrive?  That isn't there now.

 

The US has a lot of resources.  But, not enough to sustain the amount of manufacturing China currently does.  Those can be shipped from China, but that adds more expense.

 

All that said, I agree that there's some major benefits to shifting manufacturing there.  If we could, it would create jobs and wealth in those countries so fewer residents from there want to come to the US for a better life.  If it's going to come to the US, we don't currently have the labor force to make it work.  We would need major immigration and there's a large portion of the US that is scared to allow those dirty brown people from s#!t hole countries in to work.

 

The US would need to pump trillions of dollars into those counties to help pump up those governments to create the environment for business to work well.  I personally think we should be doing that anyway.  It would help us out in many ways.

 

 

[Archy1221]

49 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Isn't the whole reason that manufacturing left the US is due to labor costs? How is that going to be addressed? And how are corporations going to be forced to relocate back to the US (government regulation?)?

Yes, I believe companies left the US to decrease their cost exposure, however, the cost increase from Asia based to CEntral America/South America based can’t be too drastically different.  Plus, I thought we were all for increasing costs to make the world a better place?  Climate regulation increase costs, we were all for wage increase here knowing it would increase costs, increasing corporate taxes would increase costs, etc…why is getting away from China the only not acceptable form of increasing costs to make the world a better place?  
 

No, I would not mandate companies do this, except for maybe some national security type industry 

[RedDenver]

24 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Yes, I believe companies left the US to decrease their cost exposure, however, the cost increase from Asia based to CEntral America/South America based can’t be too drastically different.

I'd like to see the numbers. Plus there's the cost of relocating the actual factories now that they're no longer in the US.

 

24 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

 Plus, I thought we were all for increasing costs to make the world a better place?  Climate regulation increase costs, we were all for wage increase here knowing it would increase costs, increasing corporate taxes would increase costs, etc…why is getting away from China the only not acceptable form of increasing costs to make the world a better place?  

That's a bunch of strawmen and "squirrel!!" distractions. I'm not opposed to getting manufacturing back into the US, but it's much easier to say we should do it than to put forth a plan that addresses the issues.

 

24 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

No, I would not mandate companies do this, except for maybe some national security type industry 

Then why in the world would any company move back to the US? My guess is they'll move from China to the next country with extremely cheap labor like Vietnam or Cambodia before moving on to places in Africa. It's the down side to continually chasing profits by chasing cheap labor. It means there's cheaper goods to be bought but the manufacturing base will often abandon the places that have decent wages.

[Archy1221]

34 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Then why in the world would any company move back to the US?

Social pressure for starters.  No different than the fossil fuel full court press going on now. 

[Archy1221]

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

That's kind of what I thought they were getting at.  It's saying move it to the US, and more importantly, Mexico and Central America.  That's a good thought. But, there are some major issues that need to be addressed before that can be successful.

 

a) China is a major manufacturer in large part because they have a huge amount of raw materials.  Mexico and Central America doesn't have that.  Where is that going to come from?

 

b) Governmental stability.  This is huge.  In China, with all their faults, the government has control of the country and the labor plays along with that.  That isn't the case with these areas.  For instance, anyone traveling to China, can be assured mostly for their safety and being able to work with people in the area.  As a business person, would you feel more comfortable traveling to China or Honduras for work?

 

c). The infrastructure in China is built for manufacturing.  That isn't the case in Mexico or Central America.

 

Central America has some of the most dangerous and wild west areas of the western Hemisphere.  Is a company going to feel comfortable pumping billions of dollars into a country that has no control over society, crime and overall organization for a business to thrive?  That isn't there now.

 

The US has a lot of resources.  But, not enough to sustain the amount of manufacturing China currently does.  Those can be shipped from China, but that adds more expense.

 

All that said, I agree that there's some major benefits to shifting manufacturing there.  If we could, it would create jobs and wealth in those countries so fewer residents from there want to come to the US for a better life.  If it's going to come to the US, we don't currently have the labor force to make it work.  We would need major immigration and there's a large portion of the US that is scared to allow those dirty brown people from s#!t hole countries in to work.

 

The US would need to pump trillions of dollars into those counties to help pump up those governments to create the environment for business to work well.  I personally think we should be doing that anyway.  It would help us out in many ways.

 

 

Definitely many good points to consider and none that I would consider an insurmountable obstacle for leaving China in the dust.  Mexico is a fairly stable government, so are a few African nations, along with other Near East countries, along with the good ol US of A.  

[RedDenver]

51 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Social pressure for starters.  No different than the fossil fuel full court press going on now. 

Fossil fuel changes have been almost entirely due to government regulation and incentives. Social pressure doesn't usually make corporations do anything outside of some PR/marketing changes.

[Archy1221]

2 hours ago, RedDenver said:

That's a bunch of strawmen and "squirrel!!" distractions

It’s actually not.  Those are things that people have said are worth it to pay more for products.  So why is Getting out of China not worth it in the same vein?  It’s only a “squirrel” distraction when you want it to be one because you don’t like what’s being truthfully said. 

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Definitely many good points to consider and none that I would consider an insurmountable obstacle for leaving China in the dust.  Mexico is a fairly stable government, so are a few African nations, along with other Near East countries, along with the good ol US of A.  

If it's the US, where is the labor going to come from?

 

Not insurmountable?  How do you think people will feel when politicians start talking about sending so much money to central American countries?

[Archy1221]

2 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Fossil fuel changes have been almost entirely due to government regulation and incentives. Social pressure doesn't usually make corporations do anything outside of some PR/marketing changes.

I disagree 

[RedDenver]

1 minute ago, Archy1221 said:

It’s actually not.  Those are things that people have said are worth it to pay more for products.  So why is Getting out of China not worth it in the same vein?  It’s only a “squirrel” distraction when you want it to be one because you don’t like what’s being truthfully said. 

I asked what the plan is for bringing manufacturing back to the US and gave some examples of the issues. You responded with "But other things cost money!!" That's not an answer nor is it a plan.

 

Believe it or not, I think we should bring manufacturing back to the US, but I've been pondering this issue for years and I don't see a way to do this without a radical overhaul of the economy, which would have to be done by government regulations and incentives. I'm curious if anyone has thought of alternatives, which is why I was asking.

[Archy1221]

4 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

If it's the US, where is the labor going to come from?

 

Not insurmountable?  How do you think people will feel when politicians start talking about sending so much money to central American countries?

How do people currently feel about China?

 

Im fine with finding out how people react to it vs the status quo.  

[BigRedBuster]

3 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

How do people currently feel about China?

 

Im fine with finding out how people react to it vs the status quo.  

 

I'm all for finding other options other than China.  I've even said I'm all for developing Mexico and Central America to outsource anything that needs outsourced.  I would much rather have our money going to countries around us, than half way across the world.  But, to say these issues are easily fixed.....is over simplifying the issues.

 

Even if you get the governments on board, control crime in the countries and get companies to move there, where are the resources going to come from?

 

Another major issue is the educational systems in these countries.  They will need very good engineers...etc. to develop it.  China already had that. These countries don't. 

[Archy1221]

35 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

39 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

 

I asked what the plan is for bringing manufacturing back to the US and gave some examples of the issues. You responded with "But other things cost money!!" That's not an answer nor is it a plan.

Ya, well I don’t run a Fortune 500 company nor am I a geopolitical expert so whatever “plan” I come up with wouldn’t matter one bit.  Discussing a big picture idea however, is kinda the point of a message board. 

38 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

radical overhaul of the economy,

What does this mean or entail in your view