Is it scheme or play calling?

[floridacorn]

15 minutes ago, admo said:

Those quick screens suck when they are over used and become predictable.  The efficiency in the RZ looks questionable at times.  Over all I am ok with the scheme and most of the play calling. 

 

Quick screens in abundance are fine if the D is off.  Hopefully, this trio of WR's offers more of a downfield threat to open space for those plays and gives Frost the confidence of go downfield when they are tight or squatting on everything.  

 

That's kind, the RZ efficiency under Frost has been a big problem. 

 

My biggest criticism of play calling is that the run/pass games are often not tied together.  The short drop back passing game Frost often leans heavily on doesn't compliment the running game imo.  I thought the same thing when he was at UCF, but Milton bailed them out of a lot of plays by scrambling.  

[Cobra Kai]

4 minutes ago, Undone said:

@Cobra Kai: "Inside Zone handoff" was just something I threw out there as a visual for looking at one single play and then judging the fans' reactions if the play doesn't work. Don't get too hung up on "inside zone" generically.

 

Frost has tried the big sets, and J-MAGIC was even just commenting on how often he used those sets even last year.

 

But anyway, this still dovetails with the conversation on the screen passes; to me he's dialing those up because nothing he tries in the base running game is working. So it's an attempt at this very concept:

 

 

...but he still gets railed either way.

Hey, I get it...sometimes plays don't work.  Trust me, I know first hand how hard it is sometimes to be a play caller.  I am not poo pooing Frost...don't get that twisted.  

 

He knows his team strengths and weaknesses better than I do, but I am also not going to give any play caller a pass if they bang their head against the wall continuously doing stuff that never works.  

 

Some guys on here have lost all faith in this regime...I am not in that camp.  Frost & Co have my support until they retire or get fired.  But I do reserve my right to constructively criticize!  Lol

[Undone]

15 minutes ago, Cobra Kai said:

Hey, I get it...sometimes plays don't work.  Trust me, I know first hand how hard it is sometimes to be a play caller.  I am not poo pooing Frost...don't get that twisted.  

 

He knows his team strengths and weaknesses better than I do, but I am also not going to give any play caller a pass if they bang their head against the wall continuously doing stuff that never works.  

 

Some guys on here have lost all faith in this regime...I am not in that camp.  Frost & Co have my support until they retire or get fired.  But I do reserve my right to constructively criticize!  Lol

 

+1, good post. We're definitely on the same page there and I'm all for criticizing Frost. I'm extremely critical of his inability to focus in on and fix the ridiculous special teams issues his teams have.

 

Overall where I stand on the "is there a big problem with Frost's play calling" is that he's had some really dumb struggles making good calls inside the red zone, but the problems we've had just moving the chains downfield probably have much more to do with personnel shortcomings.

 

But then it's a situation where no matter what he calls, it's hard to put together drives because you're hamstrung by not having good running back play and not having a wideout that can really separate and be a downfield threat in the first place.

 

Just my opinion there.

[Cdog923]

On 7/26/2021 at 9:36 AM, J-MAGIC said:

Sometimes they go into the grab bag a bit, but Frost has always been that way, even at Oregon, but you take the good with the bad. People who complain about bubble screens or swing passes don't understanding the function they serve. The basic truth with our offense is that our players have just not as good/experienced as most of our opponents and we're young and make bone-headed errors.

 

For as tired and as worn out as bubbles, tunnels and swing passes are, this is spot on. 

[Toe]

1 hour ago, admo said:

Those quick screens suck when they are over used and become predictable.

 

They suck when you don't have a mid to deep passing game that defenses have to respect...

[admo]

3 minutes ago, Toe said:

 

They suck when you don't have a mid to deep passing game that defenses have to respect...

I agree.  And I'm mostly looking back at last season.  Do you feel it's because of available talent running those plays?  The pass protection?    

[Undone]

16 minutes ago, admo said:

I agree.  And I'm mostly looking back at last season.  Do you feel it's because of available talent running those plays?  The pass protection?    

 

I do think it's personnel (same thing as "talent"), and I'd reference Frost's first year as evidence. When he had Ozigbo, Morgan, and Spielman all on the field at the same time it was a different offense.

 

We were 2nd in the conference in offensive yards per game in 2018 at 456.2 YPG. But, we blew several games that year due to terrible defense and penalties.

[ZRod]

1 hour ago, J-MAGIC said:

I'm doing a little project and breaking down some of our games from last year. It's amazing how much 12 personnel they were playing last year after Martinez took back over with two of Allen, Volk, or Stoll out there at all times. It's like over 75 percent of the plays I've charted so far. And it's not like traditional 12 personnel formations or plays -- it's 11 personnel formations and they have the tight end split out like an X or Z or even in the slot and just performing those roles. Not everything obviously but I think that's pretty telling on what our coaches thought of our talent level at receiver. 

I think the 12 personnel with a flexed TE was pretty common at Oregon, or in pretty much any true spread offense. They're looking to get a mismatch on a corner, or have a LB try to cover in space. You see it a fair amount in the NFL too. KC loves to flex Kelce out at almost every possible receiving spot. I think New England even use to do it a lot with young Gronk and Hernandez.

 

But if they line up out wide from the start that's a little different I guess. Usually this offense has them either flexing from the line or motioning across the formation to get the mismatch.

[Undone]

10 minutes ago, ZRod said:

I think the 12 personnel with a flexed TE was pretty common at Oregon, or in pretty much any true spread offense. They're looking to get a mismatch on a corner, or have a LB try to cover in space.

 

Yes. What I remember Frost being really great at with UCF and then even a fair bit in 2018 was his ability to draw up angles on routes to pull both one safety and one corner out of a big chunk of the field and then angle a receiver into that void.

 

What happened to this in the last two seasons? Hard to say. Having a dynamic where defenses don't respect your receivers and blitz constantly makes it hard to get those plays to develop.

[J-MAGIC]

2 hours ago, Cobra Kai said:

A play callers job is to put his guys in the best position to be successful.  If we don't have rbs with good vision, running an inside zone play with any of them is poor play calling.  We could run power, with or without a FB, we could run options/reads with the qbs or the often overused screen game.  

 

Running an inside zone is not like running isos with a FB...ramming it down people's throats.  You have to be able to make split second judgment calls on where to go based upon the leverage of the guys up front.  

 

Good play caller-puts players in the best position for success

 

 

This doesn't track for me because almost all of our run concepts have some sort of read or RPO off them. Everything had an unblocked player or a tag on the outside. If the defense is dictating it's a give to the RB then I don't see what you're suggesting our coaches do (beyond completely changing the offense or developing better players).

[J-MAGIC]

39 minutes ago, ZRod said:

I think the 12 personnel with a flexed TE was pretty common at Oregon, or in pretty much any true spread offense. They're looking to get a mismatch on a corner, or have a LB try to cover in space. You see it a fair amount in the NFL too. KC loves to flex Kelce out at almost every possible receiving spot. I think New England even use to do it a lot with young Gronk and Hernandez.

 

But if they line up out wide from the start that's a little different I guess. Usually this offense has them either flexing from the line or motioning across the formation to get the mismatch.

 

You're not wrong on any of this, I just think it's very telling that our coaches thought playing Austin Allen in the slot on almost 75 percent of our plays was the best thing for our offense. We also basically spent zero time in 10 personnel in the back half of the season, which is a huge departure from Oregon and UCF. I just think it's pretty clear from rewatching stuff that outside of Wandale we just didn't have a Big Ten-caliber receiving corps. I think that can change with the Omar and Toure additions and with the Betts-Brown-Nixon trio learning the playbook, but we didn't have it last year.

[Undone]

5 minutes ago, J-MAGIC said:

We also basically spent zero time in 10 personnel in the back half of the season, which is a huge departure from Oregon and UCF.

 

I feel pretty confident this is because he just didn't trust our five down linemen in the base running game out of these sets, and you can't really blame him. Then the other thing is not having great pass protection to block long enough for Adrian to see a receiver getting open on passing plays out of those sets.

[Undone]

Without googling it, where would you have guessed we ranked for offensive yards per game in 2019 & 2020?

 

Spoiler

-Fifth in 2019 (Minnesota had any easy schedule and a good team and finished fourth

-Fourth in 2020

 

So...why does the win/loss column wind up so disproportionate? In my opinion because of terrible special teams, consistently being negative in the turnover margin, and penalties.

 

[Toe]

1 hour ago, admo said:

I agree.  And I'm mostly looking back at last season.  Do you feel it's because of available talent running those plays?  The pass protection?    

 

I mean.... *glances in the direction of his wall of text on the first page*

[admo]

3 minutes ago, Toe said:

 

I mean.... *glances in the direction of his wall of text on the first page*

Yeah.  Do you have a pie chart, instead?