Sexism - It's a Real Thing

[NM11046]

1 minute ago, ColoradoHusk said:

Because he's 11.

Gotcha - at what time do you decide to talk openly?  Is it triggered at a certain age?  After exposure to something (i.e. movie, internet, comment by friend etc)?

 

Not trying to ask dumb questions, and don't want to come across as nudgey but if we talk about setting up environments for open discussion with kids and teaching them early on I am curious what that is?  Certainly its different for each kid - or is it?

 

A few years ago a friend of mine was telling me how one of her sons found her vibrator in a bedside drawer (he was probably 9 or 10).  I was horrified and asked how she handled it.  She said something to the effect that "it's mommies and it's something that moms and dads use when they're in the bedroom that makes her feel good.  It's not a toy for you to play with and you should leave it alone."  At the time I wasn't sure what I thought about how she handled it (ok, I was sure, I was still horrified), but as she further explained, she wanted them to understand that it's/sex is nothing to be embarrassed about, that if they had questions that they should feel like they can come to her.  Now I think she likely set the right tone for her boys to be pretty comfortable talking openly not only with her but with their future partners.

[ColoradoHusk]

Just now, NM11046 said:

Gotcha - at what time do you decide to talk openly?  Is it triggered at a certain age?  After exposure to something (i.e. movie, internet, comment by friend etc)?

 

Not trying to ask dumb questions, and don't want to come across as nudgey but if we talk about setting up environments for open discussion with kids and teaching them early on I am curious what that is?  Certainly its different for each kid - or is it?

 

A few years ago a friend of mine was telling me how one of her sons found her vibrator in a bedside drawer (he was probably 9 or 10).  I was horrified and asked how she handled it.  She said something to the effect that "it's mommies and it's something that moms and dads use when they're in the bedroom that makes her feel good.  It's not a toy for you to play with and you should leave it alone."  At the time I wasn't sure what I thought about how she handled it (ok, I was sure, I was still horrified), but as she further explained, she wanted them to understand that it's/sex is nothing to be embarrassed about, that if they had questions that they should feel like they can come to her.  Now I think she likely set the right tone for her boys to be pretty comfortable talking openly not only with her but with their future partners.

Fair questions.  If my son were 13 or 14 or going through puberty then it would probably be a discussion where we take it further.  I know kids mature at different ages, and my son is very much like me when I was a kid, so that means he will probably be a little bit of a "late bloomer".   My wife and I just know his personality and what he's like as a kid, and I don't think he really knows what a vibrator is used for.  I could be totally wrong, and missing the boat, but we decided not to press the issue at this time.

[BigRedBuster]

I am a firm believer that a discussion with one kid at a certain age might not be appropriate for a different kid at the same age.  Kids develop physically and emotionally differently and it's important for the parent or adult to realize that.

[ColoradoHusk]

1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

I am a firm believer that a discussion with one kid at a certain age might not be appropriate for a different kid at the same age.  Kids develop physically and emotionally differently and it's important for the parent or adult to realize that.

I agree 100% with this approach.  My son and daughter have totally different personalities, so we will probably approach things with them differently.  

[NM11046]

That makes sense.

 

So do we trust that other parents have as good a handle on their kids and maturity levels and personalities?  I mean sadly, parents like you guys raise good kids.  Its the folks not necessarily on threads like this that don't have fingers on the pulse of their own children per say, and may never have any sort of conversation with their own.

 

Which leads me back to - isn't there some benefit in having that discussion in a planned way by a counselor, teacher, health professional etc for all kids?  Kinda like sex ed is rolled out to all, but you get more at home (sometimes).  Obviously in a perfect world all have at least one parent like you that has the talks, but for those who don't, don't we as a society that recognizes the problem owe it to kids to give them a base of what's right and wrong?  Of what they should demand of their partners and what they should feel comfortable with doing and saying?  I don't worry about your kids being victims or assaulters, but I do worry about kids from other families who may never get the opportunity to talk about the physical and the mental issues that come with sex and interaction with others in a sexual way.

 

edit: taking it one step further, different cultures have different norms, and levels of interactions between generations.  What is presented at the home of a 12 year old indian boy vs. a 12 year old white girl in middle american is likely very different.  There's got to be a bigger attempt at education.

Edited January 16, 2018 by NM11046

[BigRedBuster]

16 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

Which leads me back to - isn't there some benefit in having that discussion in a planned way by a counselor, teacher, health professional etc for all kids?  Kinda like sex ed is rolled out to all, but you get more at home (sometimes).  Obviously in a perfect world all have at least one parent like you that has the talks, but for those who don't, don't we as a society that recognizes the problem owe it to kids to give them a base of what's right and wrong?  Of what they should demand of their partners and what they should feel comfortable with doing and saying?  I don't worry about your kids being victims or assaulters, but I do worry about kids from other families who may never get the opportunity to talk about the physical and the mental issues that come with sex and interaction with others in a sexual way.

I'm going to sound like I'm arguing with myself with this response.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't have a problem with parts of our normal sex education classes talking about consent and all the issues around it from both the male and female perspective.  Let me reiterate.  From BOTH the female and male perspective.  I would NOT be for only looking at the boys telling them what is right and wrong.  I know some people don't want to admit this or even discuss it.  But, there are girls that have zero morals and values and respect for themselves and other people that from THEIR actions can get other people in big trouble and ruin their lives.  And, damn right I talk to my son about those issues too.  Quite frankly, those girls need an education on what is appropriate just like some boys need it.

 

So.....let me ask you this, which gets to your last edited part of your post, who decides what is taught and how and when?  Like you said, every culture and family is different and I firmly believe we should respect those differences.  A family of nudists that take their kids to the nude beach naturalist conventions is going to see this conversation very different than an Amish family from Indiana.

 

Personally, my kids are basically raised and I don't have to consider this with my own kids.  But, I would have been rather uncomfortable believing that the school system or the department of education in Washington is going to come up with a curriculum that is appropriate to teach to everyone at a certain age.  (remember the posts above about appropriate age)?

Edited January 16, 2018 by BigRedBuster

[NM11046]

I agree with you BRB - who designs the curriculum is a good question.  I guess perhaps it's based on "US law" initially and specific definition.  You'd almost have to have a group of educators/clinicians/counselors from across the US agree to something specific content wise.  The hard part is when you get to the guts of it, the beneficial part of the discussion is the scenario based, real world, role play stuff and I think what someone in rural Alabama gets for an answer during their discussion might be different than what someone in inner city LA might provide.  The churchy folks won't agree with the liberals folks discussing things candidly and openly ...

 

I don't know the answer ... but it's obvious why there are such differing views on what's right and wrong and expected behavior and acceptable responses. 

 

And I agree - there are girls that have bad intentions and poor morals for sure.  Just like the fellas.

[BigRedBuster]

17 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

I agree with you BRB - who designs the curriculum is a good question.  I guess perhaps it's based on "US law" initially and specific definition.  You'd almost have to have a group of educators/clinicians/counselors from across the US agree to something specific content wise.  The hard part is when you get to the guts of it, the beneficial part of the discussion is the scenario based, real world, role play stuff and I think what someone in rural Alabama gets for an answer during their discussion might be different than what someone in inner city LA might provide.  The churchy folks won't agree with the liberals folks discussing things candidly and openly ...

 

I don't know the answer ... but it's obvious why there are such differing views on what's right and wrong and expected behavior and acceptable responses. 

 

And I agree - there are girls that have bad intentions and poor morals for sure.  Just like the fellas.

Personally, I think anything other than a brief discussion about it in sex ed is great in theory but doesn't work in reality.

 

I prefer to believe that public discussion like this is more important and of better value and let people decide how they personally handle it.  Yes, there needs to be laws against sexual assault and their needs to be consequences for those actions.  Locally in our own social circles and neighborhoods there needs to be discussions.  We also as a public need to allow people to call others out for their sexual actions with out being labeled "churchy" or "too conservative" or "too liberal"...etc.  Just stop with the labels on people who are willing to discuss it.

 

Fact is, if these two people had more of a conservative view of sexual relationships to where any sexual activity at this point in a relationship is inappropriate.....we aren't talking about this right now because this situation would have not happened.

 

At the same time, if conservatives wouldn't be so up tight about talking about these things, maybe we could have a more open discussion about it.

Edited January 16, 2018 by BigRedBuster

[Landlord]

I agree with most all of that cool stuff.

 

Regardless of whether it's privately at home, or publicly in schools/elsewhere, we're not educating ourselves or our children well. Especially women. From the Vox article I linked earlier:

 

Meanwhile, girls learn from an early age that it is rude to reject boys. They learn to “let them down easily” and never humiliate them. They learn to give other people what they want, and to put their own desires second — especially when it comes to sex. And few girls get any sex education, either at school or from the culture they consume, that encourages them to think about sex in terms of what they actually desire, as opposed to how they will be perceived by others.

 

Recent abstinence-only curricula have included messages like, “Girls need to be aware they may be able to tell when a kiss is leading to something else. The girl may need to put the brakes on first in order to help the boy,” and, “girls need to be careful with what they wear, because males are looking! The girl might be thinking fashion, while the boy is thinking sex.”

 

Even when girls learn comprehensive sex ed, they frequently don’t learn how to ask for what they want, or even how to think about what that is. “We, as a nation, are uncomfortable with women having pleasure,” Lynn Barclay, president and CEO of the American Sexual Health Association, told Bustle in 2015.

 

 

 

I also found this NYT article about how we should be starting earlier in teaching kids about sex. I find it hard to argue with, especially when most boys have already had exposure to porn by age 8-11 (studies differ).

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/opinion/to-prevent-sexual-assault-start-early.html

 

A recent editorial in The New England Journal of Medicine pointed out that 40 percent of women who report being raped say they were first assaulted before the age of 18, which suggests that assault prevention education should start well before high school. In fact, several programs introduced in middle schools have proved effective.

 

In a group of Illinois middle schools, teaching communication and emotion management to students reduced both sexual harassment and homophobic name-calling. And a study of 30 New York City middle schools found that a combination of anti-violence posters, student-led mapping of especially dangerous areas of the school building (with corresponding increased security in those areas) and safety planning for victims led to significant reductions in inappropriate touching at school.

 

Researchers are also studying whether teaching students about sexual health reduces the risk of assault. Some educators believe that it does and that students should learn not just about preventing pregnancy and diseases but also about how to decide when they want to have sex and how to respect other people’s decisions.

 

One more quote that I found fascinating - "In the Netherlands, for example, children in kindergarten learn about things like how to express affection, as part of a broader educational program that in later grades includes information about contraception and consent."

[Guy Chamberlin]

Generally the sex conversations with our kids have been pretty open and healthy. I would never defer it to another parent or adult. We're good here.

 

I'm just not convinced blowjobs represent neo-feminist empowerment. It's the generational arguments that aren't fun, not so much the subject of sex itself. As a father you can share your wisdom as to how boys really think, but perhaps it's better to keep your mouth shut and pour a glass of Jameson.

 

We try to create an atmosphere of trust and preach safety when we can, but the truth is they will figure most of this out on their own, and it may indeed be different from our life experience.

 

By all indications, both our children are engaging in less risky behavior than mom and dad did at their age.

[NM11046]

To clarify, Netherlands is not a $hithole country right?

 

(Sorry.  Couldnt help it)

[Landlord]

3 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I'm just not convinced blowjobs represent neo-feminist empowerment.

 

 

It depends on the perspective you look at it from, I think. 

 

Not the same thing but related, and also goofy/slightly uncomfortable to bring up, I've talked with a few of my closer female friends about spanking in the bedroom. It's always something that has weirded me the eff out, and that I could never find myself being comfortable with doing to a woman. "Isn't it humiliating and misogynistic?", I thought. Almost all of them said it's actually, counter-intuitively, something that is kind of empowering for them. Because they're getting to make the choice and be in control of what a partner is or isn't allowed to do to them, or what they do or don't do to their partner. They get to have ownership of what they like and want.

[LadyGlitterSparkles]

5 hours ago, NM11046 said:

Gotcha - at what time do you decide to talk openly?  Is it triggered at a certain age?  After exposure to something (i.e. movie, internet, comment by friend etc)?

 

Not trying to ask dumb questions, and don't want to come across as nudgey but if we talk about setting up environments for open discussion with kids and teaching them early on I am curious what that is?  Certainly its different for each kid - or is it?

 

A few years ago a friend of mine was telling me how one of her sons found her vibrator in a bedside drawer (he was probably 9 or 10).  I was horrified and asked how she handled it.  She said something to the effect that "it's mommies and it's something that moms and dads use when they're in the bedroom that makes her feel good.  It's not a toy for you to play with and you should leave it alone."  At the time I wasn't sure what I thought about how she handled it (ok, I was sure, I was still horrified), but as she further explained, she wanted them to understand that it's/sex is nothing to be embarrassed about, that if they had questions that they should feel like they can come to her.  Now I think she likely set the right tone for her boys to be pretty comfortable talking openly not only with her but with their future partners.

 

Oh gosh, so much just on this page of this thread, to address, but I'll start here. I'm a single mom of 2 young boys and while their dad is around, I have chosen to be the one to take charge in educating my boys about these topics. My oldest in particular is VERY curious and asks questions about all subjects all the time. I'd say sex-related questions started coming from him at 3 years old. He started with just trying to understand anatomical differences. Then he wanted to know how babies are made. He was content with an egg/seed type explanation for a while, but eventually he wanted to know how the seed got inside the mom. As he's gotten older, he's heard things on tv or from friends/cousins that he wants to understand better.  I have instilled it in him that he is allowed to ask me ANYTHING and I will not get mad or lie to him. There have been times when I've had to tell him that I need to think about the best way to answer and I will get back to him when I've thought about it more. He accepts that and I keep my word to address his question after I've formed an appropriate response. I'm not going to lie, this has led to some REALLY uncomfortable/amusing moments. "Mom, your fachina is awake at night because it's from China and they're awake when we sleep" (when he was younger). A grossed out "So, did you and dad have to do it more than once?"  when I explained the more intricate details of how babies are made. And "Do you have to do it in a bedroom?" No idea where that one came from, tbh. Most recently he heard the word masturbation. Not going to lie... that was the most difficult one to explain for some reason. IMO, your friend handled her son's question perfectly. I don't envy her, but I respect her willingness to be honest and age appropriate with her response.

[Moiraine]

Looking back, my mom did a pretty awful job at teaching me about sex. I came home in 5th or 6th grade and asked her what a blow job was and she got really upset (not at me) and asked where I'd heard that and didn't tell me what it was. If she wasn't ready to explain it she could have said it's something that some adults who love each other do and that she would tell me about it when I was older.

I've since learned from watching movies with her that she thinks doggystyle sex is really freaky and weird (due to her gasping or asking "what the heck?" if it starts being mimicked on screen), so I suppose I can forgive her for not knowing how to talk to me about this stuff.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Moiraine

[NM11046]

52 minutes ago, LadyGlitterSparkles said:

 

Oh gosh, so much just on this page of this thread, to address, but I'll start here. I'm a single mom of 2 young boys and while their dad is around, I have chosen to be the one to take charge in educating my boys about these topics. My oldest in particular is VERY curious and asks questions about all subjects all the time. I'd say sex-related questions started coming from him at 3 years old. He started with just trying to understand anatomical differences. Then he wanted to know how babies are made. He was content with an egg/seed type explanation for a while, but eventually he wanted to know how the seed got inside the mom. As he's gotten older, he's heard things on tv or from friends/cousins that he wants to understand better.  I have instilled it in him that he is allowed to ask me ANYTHING and I will not get mad or lie to him. There have been times when I've had to tell him that I need to think about the best way to answer and I will get back to him when I've thought about it more. He accepts that and I keep my word to address his question after I've formed an appropriate response. I'm not going to lie, this has led to some REALLY uncomfortable/amusing moments. "Mom, your fachina is awake at night because it's from China and they're awake when we sleep" (when he was younger). A grossed out "So, did you and dad have to do it more than once?"  when I explained the more intricate details of how babies are made. And "Do you have to do it in a bedroom?" No idea where that one came from, tbh. Most recently he heard the word masturbation. Not going to lie... that was the most difficult one to explain for some reason. IMO, your friend handled her son's question perfectly. I don't envy her, but I respect her willingness to be honest and age appropriate with her response.

You sound like a good mom Lady.  Thanks for jumping in the convo.  I don't have kids so it's hard to imagine how I'd handle things.  I like to think I'd be like you (and my friend).  My parents raised me to just be embarrassed about sex and that it was wrong til you were married.  No detail, no discussion.  It wasn't the best way to get an education and become a confident woman.

 

Edit:  and Moiraine, similarly my folks were both very sheltered, so I can't blame how they raised me too much.  I just wished they created an environment where I felt I could ask about it.  If I did they just took me to confession. (see evolution thread)

Edited January 17, 2018 by NM11046