Church/State: The Role Of Faith (all faiths) in the Public Marketplace of Ideas - Govt, Ed, Media Etc

[TGHusker]

 

@BigRedBuster  posted this tweet on a different thread and I want to make this a topic of its own because I have great concerns about our country but more importantly, I have greater concerns about the direction that American Christianity is heading.  While the topic is centered around Christian faith in America, since it is the majority, the big picture is to discuss the role of any faith in the public marketplace of ideas.  

First let me detail my perspective- forgive me ahead of time for getting into the weeds to document the depth of my concern.

1.  True Personal Christian faith - is alive and well in the USA and across the world.  The Christian faith is growing in many nations so much so, some of those nations are sending missionaries to the USA!.  

2.  This isn't an apologetic discuss - defending the faith.  I have no concerns about the need to defend the true Gospel of Jesus Christ - Christ died, Rose again, and is forever making intercession for ALL people and I've come to believe that ALL people past and present, regardless of time and place or background will eventually come to faith in God through Jesus - either in this life or the next. (Yes that is a controversial statement - just do an unbiased study on all of the 'all inclusive' scriptures in the New Testament as well as early church history and take a deep dive into what the early church- prior to Augustine believed about judgment and hell.  This was a belief held by the church for the first 3 centuries up to Augustine and the 'Roman Conquest of the Church".  A few more recent books if you are interested:  Her Gates will Never Shut by Brad Jersak,  The Inescapable Love of God by Thomas Talbot, The Triumph of Mercy by George Hurd, That all Shall be Saved by David Bentley Hart. ) 

BUT I DIGRESS, AGAIN (ADHD!!) 

3.  I've come full circle personally.  Years ago, I was all in on the idea of the 7 Mountains - that Christians were to 'take over' the primary influence centers of Govt, Education, Business, Media, Religion, Family, Entertainment.   Now, I think this is 'another gospel' that Paul warned against in the New Testament.

4.  I believe the 7 Mountain 'theology' is the catalyst behind the current Christian Nationalism and the fuel behind Trumpism.  Trump would be nothing without this support. 

5.  While I believe in separation of church and state: The separation was to ensure that there would not be a state-run church or that the state could dominate church life.  Both the govt and the church are to have a positive, restorative, and order building/maintaining effect on society.  Separate but both doing what the other cannot do on its own to build society. 

6. We have seen many members of church caught in the Trump personality cult.  This has become a false gospel.  This isn't the church's mission.  No where do you find in the Bible that the church is to take over 'Rome" but instead we are called to serve.   To follow Christ in: Because He has anointed Me To (1)preach the gospel to the poor; (2)He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, (3) To proclaim liberty to the captives (4) And recovery of sight to the blind, (5)To set at liberty those who are oppressed; (6)To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD Luke 4:18. 

This is the mission of the church- period.   

7.  With all of that said, I believe people of all faiths have a roll to play in the public market place of ideas.  We aren't exulted but it isn't to be our primary focus.  

8.  When we are active in the public marketplace of ideas it is to promote mercy and justice  (Micah 6:8  "He has showed thee O man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with your God")

9.  Recent history has shown that when we lose sight of the mission of the church, all 'hell' breaks out.  J6, oppressive laws and SC rulings, power driven politics that drive division and distract from the true business of governing.  

 

So my big question to all of you:  How do we preserve/balance the rights and freedoms of faith and its expression in the public square while also preserving the separation of spheres of influence?

 

Perhaps this thread can be used for discussions of all church/state issues.  

 

 

https://www.mediamatters.org/qanon-conspiracy-theory/alabama-supreme-court-chief-justice-spreads-christian-nationalist-rhetoric

Quote

 

During a recent interview on the program of self-proclaimed “prophet” and QAnon conspiracy theorist Johnny Enlow, Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Tom Parker indicated that he is a proponent of the “Seven Mountain Mandate,” a theological approach that calls on Christians to impose fundamentalist values on all aspects of American life.

Enlow is a pro-Trump “prophet” and leading proponent of the “Seven Mountain Mandate,” a “quasi-biblical blueprint for theocracy” that asserts that Christians must impose fundamentalist values on American society by conquering the “seven mountains” of cultural influence in U.S. life: government, education, media, religion, family, business, and entertainment.

Enlow has also repeatedly pushed the QAnon conspiracy theory, sometimes even connecting it to the Seven Mountain Mandate. Per Right Wing Watch, Enlow has claimed that world leaders are “satanic” pedophiles who “steal blood” and “do sacrifices” and that “there is presently no real democracy on the planet” because over 90 percent of world leaders are involved in pedophilia and are being blackmailed.

On February 16, the Alabama Supreme Court ruled that frozen embryos are people, with the same rights as living children, and that a person can be held liable for destroying them, imperiling in vitro fertilization treatment in the state. In a concurring opinion, Parker quoted the Bible, suggested that Alabama had adopted a “theologically based view of the sanctity of life,” and said that “human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God.”

In the interview on Enlow’s program — which was uploaded the same day as the ruling was issued — Parker claimed that “God created government” and said it’s “heartbreaking” that “we have let it go into the possession of others.” Parker then invoked the Seven Mountain Mandate, saying, “And that's why he is calling and equipping people to step back into these mountains right now.”

Parker suggested a familiarity with Enlow’s work, telling him, “As you've emphasized in the past, we've abandoned those Seven Mountains and they've been occupied by the opposite side.”

Parker discussed his “call” to what Enlow called the “mountain of government,” and later told Enlow that he appreciates what he’s done by “giving us the overview and the vision that allows us to really contemplate what God is calling each of us to for our role on those Seven Mountains.” 

Enlow praised Parker, telling him he’s “in such a key place that we don't want to have any conversations that hurt you in any kind of way, but we appreciate who you are, who you are in the kingdom.” 

Parker also claimed that God “is equipping me with something for the very specific situation that I’m facing,” and responded affirmatively when Enlow asked if “the holy spirit is there” when he’s “arbitrating a session” and performing his job as chief justice.

Parker’s ties to extreme right-wing Christian and “prophetic” media figures extends beyond the interview with Enlow. 

Last year, Christian nationalist media figure Sean Feucht said Parker had invited him into the court’s chambers for a worship session. Parker also joined a prayer call in March 2023 with supposed prophets and apostles, and he prayed that “there will be a growing hunger in the judges of Alabama, and around the nation for more of God. And that they will be receptive to his moves toward restoration of the judges, so that they can play their forecast role in revival in this nation.

 

 

[funhusker]

We are all influenced by religious or non-religious reasons.  It's human nature and part of society.

 

Govt leaders are free to have whatever morals they desire and use those to create our laws.  But as soon as those laws begin to infringe on EVERYONE'S Constitutional rights, it's out of bounds.

[TGHusker]

12 minutes ago, funhusker said:

We are all influenced by religious or non-religious reasons.  It's human nature and part of society.

 

Govt leaders are free to have whatever morals they desire and use those to create our laws.  But as soon as those laws begin to infringe on EVERYONE'S Constitutional rights, it's out of bounds.

That is what disturbs me about the present trend.  As an alternative 'gospel' (Christian Nationalism) has taken over so much of the church(not the majority but much too large of a %) it becomes tyrannical in its nature.  A phrase that has stuck with me since my college years applies: "Bad theology is a terrible taskmaster" and another 'Be aware of half-truths (alternative gospel for example), you may get the wrong half".   The "alternative gospel" becomes cold, judgmental and repressive - in all of its influences.  The promoters of such views, become harden and lack  the sense of 'justice and mercy" (Micah 6:8 again) while the targets of such views (women, immigrants- legal or illegal, etc) are being delt with harshly.  

As you note, @funhusker, and I'm paraphrasing here: when my brother's or sister's (figuratively speaking) rights are infringed upon, mine are as well.  Whatever draconian laws are created for Joe Blow today, will be created for me tomorrow.  

[BigRedBuster]

I've said this before on here.  The three or four people that have screwed me the most in business are people who constantly talk about how Christian they are and constantly putting themselves out as so much more righteous than anyone else.   It flies right in the face of this.

 

 

Quote

to walk humbly with your God"

 

I believe that everyone should carry with them the morals and beliefs of their religion and think about that when serving others.  But, it's not our duty to force those beliefs on others.  We should lead as Christians by living our lives as we believe we should and then that is an example to others.  NOT... to throw it in their faces, but to live in a way to serve others and hopefully that rubs off on others.

[TGHusker]

54 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I've said this before on here.  The three or four people that have screwed me the most in business are people who constantly talk about how Christian they are and constantly putting themselves out as so much more righteous than anyone else.   It flies right in the face of this.

 

 

 

I believe that everyone should carry with them the morals and beliefs of their religion and think about that when serving others.  But, it's not our duty to force those beliefs on others.  We should lead as Christians by living our lives as we believe we should and then that is an example to others.  NOT... to throw it in their faces, but to live in a way to serve others and hopefully that rubs off on others.

I know what you mean about being screwed.  A pastor of ours said something similar to that once from the pulpit - pastor of a large church. 

The MAGA types have no concept of the humility part and not getting into other people's faces.  They follow their savior -trump.  

[Lorewarn]

I don't see governments as being all that different than religious institutions. Both entities, as well as plenty of others, are all manifestations of the same collision between two forces:

 

Force #1 is consciousness. Ever since we developed the ability to be conscious, we've been trying to figure out what to do with consciousness because it is a serious problem and in one way of looking at it, the source of all our problems.

 

Force #2 is the innate fear and desperation people face in response to consciousness, being all too willing to ask and beg someone or something else to make their decisions for them, because freedom and the responsibility that comes with it are both frightening ideas.

 

Good systems, and good actors within those systems, whether they be governing bodies, churches, schools, non-profits and so forth, are ones which ultimately serve towards the means of empowering. Empowering autonomy, intuition, sovereignity, responsibility and freedom. These systems point everyone to an eventual destination of, "You need nothing other than you." I think this was Jesus' whole idea. Bad systems are ones which convince you that you need them and only them and position themselves in such a way to manipulate and control you (often subconsciously) into participation. In this way, governments are frequently not that different than mafias, and churches are frequently not that different than cults. 

[TGHusker]

@Lorewarn  I think a lot of what you said above correlates with the verse I quoted:  We are to love mercy and justice and walk humbly.  If govts and churches are there to serve people, they are doing those things.  If power and control is the motive, then obviously there is limited mercy and justice and no humility.  

[VectorVictor]

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

I've said this before on here.  The three or four people that have screwed me the most in business are people who constantly talk about how Christian they are and constantly putting themselves out as so much more righteous than anyone else.   It flies right in the face of this.

 

I believe that everyone should carry with them the morals and beliefs of their religion and think about that when serving others.  But, it's not our duty to force those beliefs on others.  We should lead as Christians by living our lives as we believe we should and then that is an example to others.  NOT... to throw it in their faces, but to live in a way to serve others and hopefully that rubs off on others.

 

In DFW there was a direct correlation between how 'Christian' a company claimed to be and the number of complaints, either online, Yelp, or via the BBB. 

 

---

 

Modern day Christianity fueling the GOP is nothing more than a defective cult of personality, and these people that claim to be "Christian" or follow the "Seven Mountain Mandate" deserve to be pimp-slapped with the Bible repeatedly until they actually crack open and read the New Testament. 

Frankly, it's the behavior of so-called Christians in Texas, Nebraska, in politics and online, that has turned me away from the religion as a whole. Hell, even the cancer within Christianity (Southern Baptists and certain extremist-led Diocese of Catholicism...like what's in Lincoln and parts west) even admits to running ads about what Jesus taught (e.g. the foot washing ad during the Super Bowl) just to get people in the door so they can brainwash them to their perverted version of Christianity. 

 

There's a reason Christianity is at an all-time low, especially among youth. Making the USA a religious autocracy isn't going to fix that. 

[TGHusker]

16 minutes ago, VectorVictor said:

deserve to be pimp-slapped with the Bible repeatedly until they actually crack open and read the New Testament. 

Unique if not effective way of saying :  "Read your Bible & apply it before you open your mouth!"

[TGHusker]

 

Example why I started this thread 

https://www.mediaite.com/trump/welcome-to-the-end-of-democracy-trump-booster-jack-posobiec-vows-to-finish-what-began-on-jan-6-as-steve-bannon-cheers-on/

 

 

[ZRod]

Religion should be treated like a penis. It's nice to have one, ok if you don't, and either way fine to be proud of it; but don't pull it out in public, stick it in someone's face, or shove it down their throat.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, TGHusker said:

Unique if not effective way of saying :  "Read your Bible & apply it before you open your mouth!"

But which translation and version? KJV,  NKJV, RSV, NRSV-CE, etc. Or do we learn to read the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Still what order are the books in and what's left out? Are we going literal or more of a Catholic/Protestant vibes?

 

The trouble with any religion is that there are too many interpretations, hince why it has no purpose being applied in government.

[Loebarth]

@ZRodYou obviously aren't a believer and so you freely give your opinion.

 

Me, I am a believer and find everything you said very offensive. To begin with you slander only Christianity and ignore the other faiths.. I call that (not you ZRod, rather the commonly intentional singling out Christianity) a cowardly statement/mistake/fear of offending other religions.

 

Secondly, you don't differentiate between the difference in "faith" and "religion". I know it's a common perception/mistake/lack of understanding in the "non-believers" mind/dialog but they are actually very opposite. Religion is filled with doctrine of which much of that doctrine is "judgemental" and in that causes much of the sentiment you ( @ZRod) posted. Yeshua Hamashiach (Jesus, The Christ) confronted religion twice and in both he crushed the concept. Religion's purpose, as Matthew 23 reveals, is to put a wall up between you and God thereby closing the gates of heaven down.

 

One other reality that people misunderstand about Christ's teaching. Christ did not stand against the Romans and Roman Authority, nor did he stand against the Hebrew people or the non-believers (called Goyim). Rather he confronted the authority that used law to create difference and indifference. The reality of law is judgement. The question is, on who and how or more appropriately whom will it be applied too. Yeshua (Jesus) taught (Matthew 7) That judge and be judged. Still, it's not far reaching to wonder how many will read my post and not actually research it. As for the law, it is clearly stated in Galatians 2:16-22 and thru my faith in the Blood Sacrifice of The Lamb (Christ Jesus) let me close by saying this. Jesus preached the only way to the Father is thru the Son. Christians around the world, myself included, know God's voice.

 

The law is judgement and judgement is condemnation and if you want to truly understand my post and how it's being applied at this moment in time do some research and look into a law "HJ RES 102.14 "Education Day USA" (educating us in "their" law) entered into our lands on March 20, 1991 (in a secret vote, after sending congress home for the spring holiday they ratified this law).

[ZRod]

13 minutes ago, Loebarth said:

@ZRodYou obviously aren't a believer and so you freely give your opinion.

 

Me, I am a believer and find everything you said very offensive. To begin with you slander only Christianity and ignore the other faiths.. I call that a coward. Secondly, you don't differentiate between the difference in "faith" and "religion". I know it's a common perception/mistake/lack of understanding in the "non-believers" mind/dialog but they are actually very opposite. Religion is filled with doctrine of which much of that doctrine is "judgemental" and in that causes much of the sentiment you ( @ZRod) posted. Yeshua Hamashiach (Jesus, The Christ) confronted religion twice and in both he crushed the concept. Religion's purpose, as Matthew 23 reveals, is to put a wall up between you and God thereby closing the gates of heaven down. One other reality that people misunderstand about Christ's teaching. Christ did not stand against the Romans, nor did he stand against the hebrew people or the non-believers (called goyim). Rather he confronted the authority that used law to create difference and indifference. The reality of law is judgement. The question is, on who and how or more appropriately whom will it be applied too. Yeshua (Jesus) taught (Matthew 7) That judge and be judged. Still, it's not far reaching to wonder how many will read my post and not actually research it. As for the law, it is clearly stated in Galatians 2:16-22 and thru my faith in the Blood Sacrifice of The Lamb (Christ Jesus) let me close by saying this. Jesus preached the only way to the Father is thru the Son. Christians around the world, myself included, know God's voice. The law is judgement and judgement is condemnation and if you want to truly understand my post and how it's being applied at this moment in time do some research and look into a law HJ RES 102.14 "Education Day USA" (educating us in "their" law) entered into our lands on March 20, 1991 (in a secret vote, after sending congress home for the spring holiday they ratified this law).

I freely give my opinion because this is a forum, and OP wanted people's opinions on the subject of faith/religion in government, which I thought I did rather humorously.

 

I'm sorry you're too sensitive to criticisms of your chosen "faith". If you'd like me to slander other religions  outside of Christianity I can do that too (Jews and Muslims should really give bacon a shot, Hindus are missing out on a nice steak, and that Zoroaster guy really screwed up by not copywriting monotheism). I simply pointed out that there are quite a lot of different interpretations, and methods of practicing the "faith". You have chosen one specific way to practice Christianity. To force your interpretation on others who don't share your beliefs would be rather rude. Hence the analogy in my original post.

[Moiraine]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:36 PM, BigRedBuster said:

I've said this before on here.  The three or four people that have screwed me the most in business are people who constantly talk about how Christian they are and constantly putting themselves out as so much more righteous than anyone else.   It flies right in the face of this.

 

 

 

I believe that everyone should carry with them the morals and beliefs of their religion and think about that when serving others.  But, it's not our duty to force those beliefs on others.  We should lead as Christians by living our lives as we believe we should and then that is an example to others.  NOT... to throw it in their faces, but to live in a way to serve others and hopefully that rubs off on others.

 

 

This has been my experience too. Not in business but in life; the more self-righteous a person acts about their Christianity, the worse they turn out to be. I say this as a Christian.

 

When I was 14 I was working on a website for a store, at the store, and listening to a popular pop singer who was just singing a generic love song with nothing controversial in it. The guy who helped us with our computer/internet stuff was a pastor and he came in and lectured me about how evil secular music was. About a month later I learned that he was cheating on his wife and ran off with the girl he was cheating with. 

[Moiraine]

51 minutes ago, Loebarth said:

@ZRodYou obviously aren't a believer and so you freely give your opinion.

 

Me, I am a believer and find everything you said very offensive. To begin with you slander only Christianity and ignore the other faiths.. I call that (not you ZRod, rather the commonly intentional singling out Christianity) a cowardly statement/mistake/fear of offending other religions.

 

 

My fellow Christians have a persecution complex. Nothing he said was offensive. God created genitals. Zrod was talking about religion, and then replied to TGH’s post where he was talking about the Bible, so therefore he mentioned the versions of the Bible. Makes sense.