strigori Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice. Says the human within the confines of space and time - who are you to say what a being outside of it can or cannot do and how it affects us? There is a mistake in thinking that God is progressing along a timeline like we are when He is not. This viewpoint leads to the idea that He is "seeing ahead". If that were true, then yeah, it would destroy the concept of free-will. But he doesn't foresee anything, He just sees. He views the future in the same way that he sees the future in the same way that he views the past. Every day, moment and history is "now" to God, if such a time-dependent statement can be made. God does not remember you doing things yesterday, He just sees it; similarly, He does not foresee you doing things tomorrow, He only sees it. If I watch you go throughout the day on hidden camera, as it is happening live, do you cry foul that you have no free will in your choices? There is one set of rules the universe operates under. Time is linear, nothing exists outside the rules. The thesis you have does not hold water. "God" is not sitting outside the 'box' of reality where everything is happening at the same time. And even under the closed system you describe everything would be fixed. If the being outside the 'box' 'sees' everything at the same time,events inside the 'box' still occurs in a linear path, meaning you are on a fixed or fated path. No free will in this example either. If you are watching on a hidden cam, you are watching in real time, you don't know what I'm going to do next. You might be able to guess most of it if you knew my general routine, but something would come as a surprise, no matter how well you knew me. The simple fact of the matter is that the religions like the idea of 'God' knowing all and having a 'master plan' because they are afraid of the unknown and crave an order to life. It, like everything else with religion is a holdover from the superstitious eras of the past. I refuse to believe there is a destiny of a fate. If there is some master plan where all is known and set in motion, then there is no good, no evil. Just a sick, twisted sadist who is pulling the strings. And that is something I will not accept. Link to comment
HuskerShark Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice. Says the human within the confines of space and time - who are you to say what a being outside of it can or cannot do and how it affects us? There is a mistake in thinking that God is progressing along a timeline like we are when He is not. This viewpoint leads to the idea that He is "seeing ahead". If that were true, then yeah, it would destroy the concept of free-will. But he doesn't foresee anything, He just sees. He views the future in the same way that he sees the future in the same way that he views the past. Every day, moment and history is "now" to God, if such a time-dependent statement can be made. God does not remember you doing things yesterday, He just sees it; similarly, He does not foresee you doing things tomorrow, He only sees it. If I watch you go throughout the day on hidden camera, as it is happening live, do you cry foul that you have no free will in your choices? There is one set of rules the universe operates under. Time is linear, nothing exists outside the rules. The thesis you have does not hold water. "God" is not sitting outside the 'box' of reality where everything is happening at the same time. This is where I believe you are wrong. God, as the creator of all things, created time as well and would therefore not be bound by it. Link to comment
knapplc Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 This is where I believe you are wrong. God, as the creator of all things, created time as well and would therefore not be bound by it. I would agree with this. God, as defined by Christianity, would easily be able to exist both within and without the constraints of this reality. I don't see any merit to the argument that somehow the creator of the universe MUST be bound to the laws of the universe, nor do I see this as a very difficult concept to grasp. Did anyone ever watch Star Trek: The Next Generation? The character Q was able to pretty much play around with the physics of the universe as if they were play-doh. Nobody seemed to have a problem with this character doing this. I don't remember any Trekkies getting their pointy ears in a bunch about what Q should or should not have been able to do. Not really sure why God the Creator suddenly has to sit inside a box that some fictional character (or, another fictional character, depending on your point of view) doesn't have to sit in. Link to comment
knapplc Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 now we're into philosophy and not religion. The two intertwine rather extensively, don't you think? Link to comment
Muck Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 It's an equal-opportunity question. Each person can answer for their own flavor. I think it is an important point to keep in mind however. We too often refer to 'Christians' as if it is a single monolithic group which couldn't be farther from the truth. Both the Methodist faith (where I participated as a young child) and the Roman Catholic Church (whose primary schools I attended) view suicide as a sin but not an unforgivable one. The official stance of both is that the creator/God/Yahweh is infinitely compassionate and forgiving. You will often see Romans 8:38-39 quoted to support the stance that suicide does not separate someone who commits suicide from God. (You'll note that I'm not touching on the modern concept of hell being an extra-dimesional fiery prison for eternal torment rather than the landfill outside of Jerusalem) Link to comment
knapplc Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I'm certain if the conversation delves further down that, say, elbow-deep into the topic that such distinctions will be made. But that's a rarity in these discussions. 1 Link to comment
walksalone Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Suicide is succumbing to weakness. It takes strength and heart to carry on. Link to comment
Landlord Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Suicide is succumbing to weakness. It takes strength and heart to carry on. It also takes a level of courage and strength though, does it not? Unfortunately I have gotten a little too close for comfort to that point in my life, and I think the only thing holding me back was a cowardice that made me too fearful to actually commit to it. Link to comment
walksalone Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Suicide is succumbing to weakness. It takes strength and heart to carry on. It also takes a level of courage and strength though, does it not? Unfortunately I have gotten a little too close for comfort to that point in my life, and I think the only thing holding me back was a cowardice that made me too fearful to actually commit to it. To a point yes, but for my dollar, it takes more strength and conviction to carry on. If you're committing suicide, you're taking the easy way out and not exhibiting the testicular fortitude you need to survive. Link to comment
The Maudfather Posted April 25, 2012 Author Share Posted April 25, 2012 Suicide is succumbing to weakness. It takes strength and heart to carry on. But if you do succumb to such a weakness, do you still get to redeem your golden ticket to the pearly gates? Link to comment
NUance Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Suicide is succumbing to weakness. It takes strength and heart to carry on. But if you do succumb to such a weakness, do you still get to redeem your golden ticket to the pearly gates? I think you are mistaking God for Willy Wonka. Not a good mistake to make. Link to comment
Muck Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I think you are mistaking God for Willy Wonka. Not a good mistake to make. Willy Wonka is the devil. Link to comment
bhamHusker Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 All this time, I thought that most people who commit suicide suffer from a mental illness. I now know they're just a bunch of pussies. Edit: 1 Link to comment
Ratt Mhule Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 All this time, I thought that most people who commit suicide suffer from a mental illness. I now know they're just a bunch of pussies. Wow. I bet you think the people who mourn for them are pussies also. Which would mean my ENTIRE high school were a bunch of pussies on four separate occassions when I was in high school. And all the football players were pussies when they cried for one of their teammates who killed himself. And the 600 people who skipped school to attend the funeral were all pussies too, right? Please don't make such comments when you don't know who on this board suicide has affected. And if this was sarcasm, which I hope it is, disregard the rant Link to comment
bhamHusker Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Wow. I bet you think the people who mourn for them are pussies also. Which would mean my ENTIRE high school were a bunch of pussies on four separate occassions when I was in high school. And all the football players were pussies when they cried for one of their teammates who killed himself. And the 600 people who skipped school to attend the funeral were all pussies too, right? Please don't make such comments when you don't know who on this board suicide has affected. And if this was sarcasm, which I hope it is, disregard the rant I can't believe that post actually needs a sign. Of course it's sarcasm. It's directed at the "suicide is succumbing to weakness" nonsense that's been posted in a few different forms in this thread, beginning just a few posts into the thread. Sorry for the confusion, but given my first post in this thread, I didn't really think that it was necessary. I'll fix it. Link to comment
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