The Ron Brown Religion & Persecution Thread

[Landlord]

Has anyone ever won a religious debate?

 

 

William Lane Craig has won several.

 

 

 

 

The Dude, why do you find it necessary to equate faith with blind belief with no evidence?

[Nebula]

For me it was realizing how seriously people took their religion. That may sound counter intuitive, but I've never been religious or closely exposed to many devout people so I never really had a frame of reference. Seeing how posters reacted when I referred to their god as a magical sky fairy for the first time was an eye opener (I'm looking at you Po).

 

I didn't think you were lumping me in that latter camp, so no worries. I love you too.

 

Seriously, though, when this all gets sorted out I think you and me should get an apartment together.

[Ratt Mhule]

For me it was realizing how seriously people took their religion. That may sound counter intuitive, but I've never been religious or closely exposed to many devout people so I never really had a frame of reference. Seeing how posters reacted when I referred to their god as a magical sky fairy for the first time was an eye opener (I'm looking at you Po).

 

I didn't think you were lumping me in that latter camp, so no worries. I love you too.

 

Water under the bridge my man. Im the same way, before I came to this board, I had nobody challenge my belief system, so it was def. a shock to me also.

[lo country]

I think what it all boils down to is the definition that is used for Christianity. It is simply "one who follows Christ". To be a Christian means believing that no one gets to the Father (God) , except through me (Jesus). People often mistake this for being judgementL, but as a Christian, if I do not believe this I have a false faith. God knows your heart and man does not. I just know what I believe. It also means that while I acknowledge the existence of other faiths, I cannot be a true Christ follower if I do not believe what Jesus has stated. No more than a person of Jewish faith can admit that Christ was the Messiah or a Muslim deny Muhammad was the one true prophet of Allah. It is what makes a believer in a certain faith "faithful".

I've heard Christians express different views on this. It's a fallibility vs infallibility issue. I have a great deal of difficulty in engaging in constructive dialog with someone who feels their beliefs are rooted in irrefutable logic. But striving for tolerance means one must accept the right of another to believe whatever they want, so long as they don't actively persecute other human beings. I see no persecution on your part. But I also don't see much potential for philosophical discourse here.

 

Fair enough. I feel as though I am very tolerant of other beliefs. It is not my job to judge or feel I "am better" than others. The whole "judge not, less you be judged", pride being a sin and all etc. I feel as though I can see counter points and views, but I will not waive from the foundation of my faith. Nor would I be against others who wish to practice a certain faith. Again, if I did, I would not be a Christ follower.

[Nebula]

Fair enough. I feel as though I am very tolerant of other beliefs. It is not my job to judge or feel I "am better" than others. The whole "judge not, less you be judged", pride being a sin and all etc. I feel as though I can see counter points and views, but I will not waive from the foundation of my faith. Nor would I be against others who wish to practice a certain faith. Again, if I did, I would not be a Christ follower.

I respect your opinion on that.

 

At the end of the day, the only thing that really matters is if you try to be a good person, be a good parent, son/daughter, friend, ect. We'll all find out who was right soon enough. I, for one, am in no rush to get there just yet. I really want to be in Lincoln when we eviscerate Michigan next year.

[lo country]

Fair enough. I feel as though I am very tolerant of other beliefs. It is not my job to judge or feel I "am better" than others. The whole "judge not, less you be judged", pride being a sin and all etc. I feel as though I can see counter points and views, but I will not waive from the foundation of my faith. Nor would I be against others who wish to practice a certain faith. Again, if I did, I would not be a Christ follower.

I respect your opinion on that.

 

At the end of the day, the only thing that really matters is if you try to be a good person, be a good parent, son/daughter, friend, ect. We'll all find out who was right soon enough. I, for one, am in no rush to get there just yet. I really want to be in Lincoln when we eviscerate Michigan next year.

 

No worries.

 

Add Wisky to that list!

[bhamHusker]

I can't speak for every atheist, but I don't claim to know for certain God doesn't exist. I'm just unconvinced He does until adequate evidence can be provided to support that hypothesis.

I think that most atheists, myself included, are like this. There's a continuum of belief and disbelief. Most atheists are what are sometimes referred to as "agnostic atheists." Agnostic in the sense that they recognize the fact that they cannot be 100% certain of the accuracy of their belief, atheist in the sense that they're unconvinced of the existence of the gods believers embrace. Even Richard Dawkins, probably the most famous atheist on the planet at this time, can be described this way. This is why he says "there's almost certainly no god" rather than "there most certainly is no god."

[Enhance]

lo country, I'm pretty sure Christianity takes a lot of heat because they dish out a lot. How many other religions have had millions of death done in it's name? How many other religions went on crusades? How many other religions have had so much hate and vitriol spread around in the name of Christ and 'God's will'?

 

I'm not a theological expert, but my basic of understanding of world history and historical religious history is that Christianity is by far and away completely responsible for the criticism it gets.

[bhamHusker]

Faith (as it relates to a religious belief). You either have it or you do not. No amount of scientific proof will ever convince the skeptics of the existence of Christ. It is called having faith, not having proof.

 

Actually, no. Legitimate evidence will convince me and any other rational person of the existence of God, Vishnu, Horus, Zeus, Loki, Jupiter or whichever of the countless gods we humans paid tribute to over the years wants to reveal their existence. If proof exists, blind faith is unnecessary. Until then, I'll continue to require more than some old stories for proof.

 

 

Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Christians all have faith. It is the difference in theologies that sets the beliefs apart. Why do people ridicule Christians for this faith, but no one ever calls Buddhists myth believers or Jews or Muslims? Christianity is the one faith that can be publicly mocked, pointed to and ridiculed with complete acceptance. Why is that? If it is all "myth" based, why the fear, why attack something many deem so foolish?

 

As a Christ follower, you will suffer for your faith. Shouldn't come as a surprise.

 

"And who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong."

 

The above, even if not a Christian seem like pretty good words to live by. Take out the "religious" speak and it sounds like a very noble cause. Suffer for right, do right even when there are consequences etc........Hard not to agree with it. Again, why ridicule Christianity?

 

For those who talk about our laws and the Bible should not influence them, look at our laws, and look at the Bible. Pretty consistent with common sense. We were founded and originally ruled with the thought of the Judea-Christian mind set.

 

Arguments for or against will take up as many pages as the mods allow.

 

I have no issues with those who deny the thought or existence of Christ. It allows others to point towards scripture and hopefully change some thoughts as it relates to their pre-conceived notion of Christ followers.

 

I'm pretty confident that most of us non-believers feel the same way about any religion, not just yours. I for one have no issue with expressing the same level of incredulity (and to be honest even contempt and disdain) for all religions. Christianity probably seems to you believers to be the target more often simply because it's the religion of the overwhelming majority of people in this country, and so it naturally features more prominently in these kinds of discussions.

 

And please, can we let go of the christian persecution complex. When the christian majority that runs this country with near impunity is replaced by a godless majority, and your belief is criminalized, when your churches are razed, when you have to hide your practices out of fear for arrest, torture and execution. I'll start worrying about persecuted christians. Right now, there are christians in Africa that must hide their religion for fear of being butchered by people that believe a different version of the same nonsense. They are persecuted. People who feel that the hell-bound heathens don't give enough respect to their imaginary gods are not.

 

Regarding our laws, I don't think that your particular holy book has a monopoly on thinking that murder, theft, fraud, assault, rape, etc. is bad.

[johnnyrodgers20]

 

They make a conscious effort to get rid of all religious beliefs of other people. They live a life without faith, that takes conviction in the fact there isn't a God and live by that tennat.

 

If someone blindly walks through life and never contemplates the existance of God I would say they have never made a choice and agree with you but many atheists are activists and aggressively push their atheist agenda.

 

So atheism is a 'faith system' because some atheists have an agenda?

 

 

 

LOL get clue, you are not very funny. I hope you don't make living with comedy. thanks fro the useless post. chuckleshuffle

[lo country]

Faith (as it relates to a religious belief). You either have it or you do not. No amount of scientific proof will ever convince the skeptics of the existence of Christ. It is called having faith, not having proof.

 

Actually, no. Legitimate evidence will convince me and any other rational person of the existence of God, Vishnu, Horus, Zeus, Loki, Jupiter or whichever of the countless gods we humans paid tribute to over the years wants to reveal their existence. If proof exists, blind faith is unnecessary. Until then, I'll continue to require more than some old stories for proof.

 

 

Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Christians all have faith. It is the difference in theologies that sets the beliefs apart. Why do people ridicule Christians for this faith, but no one ever calls Buddhists myth believers or Jews or Muslims? Christianity is the one faith that can be publicly mocked, pointed to and ridiculed with complete acceptance. Why is that? If it is all "myth" based, why the fear, why attack something many deem so foolish?

 

As a Christ follower, you will suffer for your faith. Shouldn't come as a surprise.

 

"And who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong."

 

The above, even if not a Christian seem like pretty good words to live by. Take out the "religious" speak and it sounds like a very noble cause. Suffer for right, do right even when there are consequences etc........Hard not to agree with it. Again, why ridicule Christianity?

 

For those who talk about our laws and the Bible should not influence them, look at our laws, and look at the Bible. Pretty consistent with common sense. We were founded and originally ruled with the thought of the Judea-Christian mind set.

 

Arguments for or against will take up as many pages as the mods allow.

 

I have no issues with those who deny the thought or existence of Christ. It allows others to point towards scripture and hopefully change some thoughts as it relates to their pre-conceived notion of Christ followers.

 

I'm pretty confident that most of us non-believers feel the same way about any religion, not just yours. I for one have no issue with expressing the same level of incredulity (and to be honest even contempt and disdain) for all religions. Christianity probably seems to you believers to be the target more often simply because it's the religion of the overwhelming majority of people in this country, and so it naturally features more prominently in these kinds of discussions.

 

And please, can we let go of the christian persecution complex. When the christian majority that runs this country with near impunity is replaced by a godless majority, and your belief is criminalized, when your churches are razed, when you have to hide your practices out of fear for arrest, torture and execution. I'll start worrying about persecuted christians. Right now, there are christians in Africa that must hide their religion for fear of being butchered by people that believe a different version of the same nonsense. They are persecuted. People who feel that the hell-bound heathens don't give enough respect to their imaginary gods are not.

 

Regarding our laws, I don't think that your particular holy book has a monopoly on thinking that murder, theft, fraud, assault, rape, etc. is bad.

 

I have family, on the mission field, in the areas you speak. Thanks for the input. I know the realities.

 

For the record, this entire thread, all 9 pages, is about a Christian, Ron Brown who may be fired for expressing his Christian views. That is persecution.

[lo country]

lo country, I'm pretty sure Christianity takes a lot of heat because they dish out a lot. How many other religions have had millions of death done in it's name? How many other religions went on crusades? How many other religions have had so much hate and vitriol spread around in the name of Christ and 'God's will'?

 

I'm not a theological expert, but my basic of understanding of world history and historical religious history is that Christianity is by far and away completely responsible for the criticism it gets.

 

What history witnessed with the crusades was not Christianity. I will not argue theologies or doctrine as to what was the cause, but rest assured it was not Christianity.

[bhamHusker]

I have family, on the mission field, in the areas you speak. Thanks for the input. I know the realities.

 

For the record, this entire thread, all 9 pages, is about a Christian, Ron Brown who may be fired for expressing his Christian views. That is persecution.

No. If he's to be fired, and I'm not sure he will be, it will not be for simply expressing his Christian views. Lots of people on the staff now and in the past are very religious, and many of them have been vocal, to varying degrees. None of them have faced anything like what Brown is facing because what he has done is different. He publicly used his faith and his position with the university, in the eyes of many people, to endorse bigotry. The university has a policy of inclusiveness and tolerance. Having an outspoken employee in a position of authority promoting discrimination and intolerance is at odds with that policy. He knew this when he chose to speak out initially, and doubly so when he prattled on about what an honor it would be fired for his faith. The only disappointing thing here is that he hasn't been shown the door already. I can't imagine a scenario where action would not be taken against an employee in a similar position that advocated bigotry against another group such as blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, Christians, Jews, the handicapped, natives or women.

[strigori]

lo country, I'm pretty sure Christianity takes a lot of heat because they dish out a lot. How many other religions have had millions of death done in it's name? How many other religions went on crusades? How many other religions have had so much hate and vitriol spread around in the name of Christ and 'God's will'?

 

I'm not a theological expert, but my basic of understanding of world history and historical religious history is that Christianity is by far and away completely responsible for the criticism it gets.

 

What history witnessed with the crusades was not Christianity. I will not argue theologies or doctrine as to what was the cause, but rest assured it was not Christianity.

But the people on the crusade said it was, and many of the crusades were ordered by the pope at the time. So by definition it was Christianity, regardless of what some modern people want to think and rewrite history.

 

And the crusades are hardly the only case in which Christians have been guilty of hate, violence or other sorts of evil in the name of god. We can go through some major points over the last several hundred years if you really like.

[bhamHusker]

lo country, I'm pretty sure Christianity takes a lot of heat because they dish out a lot. How many other religions have had millions of death done in it's name? How many other religions went on crusades? How many other religions have had so much hate and vitriol spread around in the name of Christ and 'God's will'?

 

I'm not a theological expert, but my basic of understanding of world history and historical religious history is that Christianity is by far and away completely responsible for the criticism it gets.

 

What history witnessed with the crusades was not Christianity. I will not argue theologies or doctrine as to what was the cause, but rest assured it was not Christianity.

What exactly is the Catholic Church then?