So why is it so hard to believe God is.....

[JJ Husker]

 

It's funny that you accuse me of now claiming that God does exist, because your last sentence seems to hedge your bet that, even if God doesn't exist, the "perception" of God is just as comforting. I totally agree with that, and that's one of the reasons I think Christianity is a worthy and meritorious thing despite no longer being Christian. If your parents and grandmother were comforted by their belief, where is the harm in that? None whatsoever that I can see. Same with my mother. It's the reason I don't in any way try to convert my family to my current belief - they are very happy in their belief, it hurts nobody, and it adds to their lives. So fine, let them believe what they want.

 

Actually, I was not really accusing you of now claiming God exists. I was merely using your own statement as an example of how he does provide the very things you claim he cannot provide. I was not hedging MY bet but rather providing a possible viewpoint of a non-believer. Look, we have about 80 years of human life on this planet if we're lucky. Some much less time and others more time. I don't spend my time trying to keep others from believing or having faith in a higher power simply because it can't scientifically be proven for a reason. Heck, even if I was convinced he didn't exist, it would seem rather cruel to me to try convince believers otherwise. Rather I expend a little bit of effort in trying to expose others to what I feel is a worthwhile way to approach life. I realize not everyone agrees with me and I try to avoid telling non-believers they are wrong, more as a courtesy than anything but, I just don't see the harm in it (as you acknowledged in your last post). It comes down to the simple thought that I would rather be wrong and have my beliefs than to be right and have nothing to believe in. You probably think I'm hedging my bet again but that is not the way it is. I can assure you that I have not one doubt that God exists regardless of any lack of proof that some others claim. The one thing I know is that when my body is failing me and I lay dying I want that same strength and courage I saw exhibited by my parents, grandmother, and the young girl down the street from me. It won't matter in the least if it is external or internal. I'll have that comfort. What will a non-believer have to comfort them? I would be pretty distressed if I really thought there would be absolutely nothing tomorrow. Maybe that's just me, I don't know

[JJ Husker]

 

No, the argument isn't as remotely as effective in the opposite. You cannot have a true relationship with someone who isn't there. You cannot experience love, support and comfort from someone who doesn't exist. For those things to be tangible and real, they must be provided by a present person/being.

 

 

It looks to you like God actually does exist, so it's not hard to see why you'd choose to believe something that I'm very much not saying. The bolded statement is not true in the least. I watched my mother die as well, and she no more was comforted or saved by God from a withering death than anyone else. She still died, in a quite tragic way, and she did not deserve to die that way, then, in the least. She deserved much more life than she was given, and while she believed in God to the day she died, God did not provide anything for her - he couldn't, because he's not real.

 

The comfort you talk about comes from the person, not from "god." A person can convince themselves of something that is not true (hint, hint) to such a degree that the very thought of its truth provides comfort. But that's not external, it's internal.

 

Amazing courage and strength exists in every human. It does not require an external source, a "god," to exist. It's part of our genetic makeup, one of the key components that has allowed our species to continue and thrive on this planet.

 

Further, that same comfort of God's love you claim was given to the people you speak of can be found all over this world, from any number of gods, and is not exclusive to the Christian God, or that belief. Muslims around the world, dying in similar circumstances to your family's and my mother's, have experienced similar comfort from Allah. Buddhists have experienced the same comfort from their beliefs. Hindus are comforted by Shiva. The list goes on and on. Were God (the Christian God) to be unique, there would have to be some difference in the comfort these people, whom you believe worship false gods, receive than the comfort our families received. But it's not different at all. It's the exact same experience, same descriptions, same feeling.

 

 

A couple other things that we should probably clear up too.

 

1- I did not make the bolded statement, you did. And then you come back and say it is not true in the least. I guess I am confused about the point you are trying to make as regards that.

 

2- You mention that people from other religions experience the same comfort that I describe. I would agree with that. But, then you continue on to make some claims I do not subscribe to. I believe there is only one God. However, I do not necessarily believe these other religions or "Gods" are false. It may simply be different cultures and times attempting to explain the one God. Yes, I align strongly with Christianity and Catholicism in particular but I also think there are other ways "to get there". I don't think you will find any examples of me claiming that Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus or even Walks Lakota beliefs are false. That is the reason I do not think a person who has not been exposed to the message of Jesus Christ is unable to get to heaven. That may go against what some Christian religions claim but we both know there is likely a big difference between the way things really are and some of the beliefs advanced by some religions. When humans get involved, the errors, ommisions, and falsehoods can only compound. The one thing I am absolutely convinced of is that God will do what is right for everyone. You may think untimely death or an excessively painful demise is just another exhibit of Gods lack of existence or lack of caring but I happen to feel that these things, in the grand scheme of eternity, are just not very important. But, I can see how they could be deal breakers for people who focus too hard on only what the human mind can comprehend and earthly life issues. It would be virtually impossible to get beyond those limitations without faith in a higher power. And those are limitations, not absolute truths like many non-believers in here claim them to be.

[knapplc]

Well, the simple truth is, it's not true. You DO NOT experience comfort from someone who doesn't exist.

 

Let's put it another way. We have the same proof that God and the Loch Ness Monster have provided that comfort. There is as much documentation - moreso for the LNM, but we'll call it even to play fair - for either to exist. So, that comfort you're claiming came from "God" could have just as easily, just as correctly, just as PROVE-ably come from the LNM as "God," but you're saying God exists. There's no proof of that. There's no reality that shows that. There's a collective belief that says so, but there's the same belief that Buddha is a deity, or Shiva, or Vishnu, or Quetzalcoatl, or [insert your favorite Diety's name here] exists.

 

To put it bluntly, there's no more proof that the Christian God exists than there is of Gilgamesh, or Zeus, or Odin. Take your pick.

 

You're "absolutely convinced" that "God" will do what's right for everyone. Take "God" out of that sentence and put in Allah, Vishnu, Odin... whomever. You claim you "know" that "God" exists, but you don't. You have no more proof of his existence than the Norse of Odin, the Hindu of Vishnu, etc.

 

So you believe what you believe, because you were born of Christian parents, in America, in this era. Great. But don't pretend for a second that this gives your belief any validity. It doesn't, nor more than my belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster has validity because I was born where I was, when I was. Had you been born in Mecca in the last 60 years, you'd be Muslim. It's an undeniable truth - more true than the existence of whatever God you choose to believe in.

 

That is undeniable. It is absolute. It is a truth. And you and every Christian here knows it.

 

If this were HuskerBoard Saudi Arabia, we'd be having this exact same discussion about Allah. "Truth" is not only relative, it's based on geography.

 

At some point you have to understand that it's not a truth. It's a belief. And it's based on tissue-thin things.

[walksalone]

If I'm a Native American, who doesn't have the same system of beliefs or believe in god, am I soulless heathen, that is going to burn in hell? If you can't answer the question, then do you question your own faith, or lack the ability to answer tough questions?

 

My comments toward you were not snarky. I'm just giving you straight-forward answers to your questions. I understand how that can be misinterpreted through text.

 

The ones toward Strigori were a little snarky though, because quite frankly, his arguments in this thread have been atrocious. Refer back to knapplc's posts responding to him, and that's why I say that. You can't come on here, take one tiny aspect of Christianity and spin it in a way that favors your side of the argument, all while misinterpreting the entire concept that you were trying to use as an argument.

 

Let's put it this way: There is nothing that we as humans can do to disprove the existence of God, or to prove His existence for that matter. But when people are trying to use a ridiculous argument against my religion, why would I not respond and set it straight?

 

You haven't answered any of my questions yet. Don't make statements that will be questioned, and then not wuss out and not answer them.

 

I haven't used any "ridiculous" argument. I'm asking you, because you worship God, does this make you better than me? Because by you saying I can't save myself, because I don't believe, paints a picture of you projecting yourself to better than others based on your beliefs.

[walksalone]

If religion, more importantly individual spiritualism, helps you get through the day, that's fine, good for you.

 

Organized religion on the other hand, is one of the most dangerous things on the planet. Most of the great atrocities have been done in the name of religion. Worst thing is, that if you look at the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, or even the Salem Witch Trials, they are just shrugged off, because they were done in the name of god. If you're going to let organized religion influence your decisions and form your opinions, then that is nuts. You're letting a religious entity tell you how you should act and what you should think, then you're merely a drone.

 

The majority of human beings have a moral compass, knowing what is right and what is wrong, without a religion outlining it for you.

[JJ Husker]

Knapp- I agree with your entire post, except for the first two sentences and the last two. You and most non-believer atheist types are really hungup on this "proof" thing. I've never tried to claim it is anything more than a belief. It requires faith because it cannot be proven. I think it is borderline lunacy to demand proof for something that by its very nature cannot be proven. But I will admit that materially there is no difference between claiming God exists or another claiming the spaghetti monster exists. You want proof that God exists and I want proof he doesn't exist. So here we are. Neither one of us able to provide what the other demands. I guess the only observation to be made at this point is that, were I as convinced of his lack of existence as many in here claim to be, the last thing I would do would be to waste my time debating the subject with those who are equally convinced of his existence. What possible gain is there for you to even be having this discussion? What good could it possibly serve if you were actually successful in convincing someone you were right and they were wrong? I don't get it. At least from my side of things, I would have a little satisfaction in possibly swaying someone towards what I believe is a good thing. The same cannot be said for possibly leading someone to absolutely nothing.

[Blackshirts007]

No, the argument isn't as remotely as effective in the opposite. You cannot have a true relationship with someone who isn't there. You cannot experience love, support and comfort from someone who doesn't exist. For those things to be tangible and real, they must be provided by a present person/being.

 

The "free will" concept is a church cop-out. I believed in it for years and years until I recognized it for what it was. It's not a viable explanation for God's ongoing absence.

 

Further, a truly loving god would never have allowed us to be in the position of needing that forgiveness. A truly loving god would forgive you without you having to jump through hoops like this.

 

It looks to me like you are now claiming that God does exist. The black bolded statement is true. I can absolutely guarantee you that there are thousands- no millions of people who experience love, support, and comfort from God. I watched both my parents and a grandmother die and there is no doubt whatsoever that they were comforted by God's love. I have also seen that comfort in a teenage girl, and her friends and family, who died of brain cancer. That one was actually tougher on me than losing family members but it is simply amazing the courage and strength their beliefs provided. You can use any argument you want about how you feel things should be but it is absolutely real for many people. The fact that some other people haven't experienced it, I believe says a lot more about those people than it does to disprove anything about Gods existence. You can also claim it is a false sense of comfort if you wish but there is no questioning the comfort and strength it provided whether real or imagined. Sometimes there is absolutely no difference between perception and reality.

 

It looks to you like God actually does exist, so it's not hard to see why you'd choose to believe something that I'm very much not saying. The bolded statement is not true in the least. I watched my mother die as well, and she no more was comforted or saved by God from a withering death than anyone else. She still died, in a quite tragic way, and she did not deserve to die that way, then, in the least. She deserved much more life than she was given, and while she believed in God to the day she died, God did not provide anything for her - he couldn't, because he's not real.

 

The comfort you talk about comes from the person, not from "god." A person can convince themselves of something that is not true (hint, hint) to such a degree that the very thought of its truth provides comfort. But that's not external, it's internal.

 

Amazing courage and strength exists in every human. It does not require an external source, a "god," to exist. It's part of our genetic makeup, one of the key components that has allowed our species to continue and thrive on this planet.

 

Further, that same comfort of God's love you claim was given to the people you speak of can be found all over this world, from any number of gods, and is not exclusive to the Christian God, or that belief. Muslims around the world, dying in similar circumstances to your family's and my mother's, have experienced similar comfort from Allah. Buddhists have experienced the same comfort from their beliefs. Hindus are comforted by Shiva. The list goes on and on. Were God (the Christian God) to be unique, there would have to be some difference in the comfort these people, whom you believe worship false gods, receive than the comfort our families received. But it's not different at all. It's the exact same experience, same descriptions, same feeling.

 

It's funny that you accuse me of now claiming that God does exist, because your last sentence seems to hedge your bet that, even if God doesn't exist, the "perception" of God is just as comforting. I totally agree with that, and that's one of the reasons I think Christianity is a worthy and meritorious thing despite no longer being Christian. If your parents and grandmother were comforted by their belief, where is the harm in that? None whatsoever that I can see. Same with my mother. It's the reason I don't in any way try to convert my family to my current belief - they are very happy in their belief, it hurts nobody, and it adds to their lives. So fine, let them believe what they want.

He provided her a spot in heaven. And it's sad you won't be joining her.

[Husker_x]

Knapp- I agree with your entire post, except for the first two sentences and the last two. You and most non-believer atheist types are really hungup on this "proof" thing. I've never tried to claim it is anything more than a belief. It requires faith because it cannot be proven. I think it is borderline lunacy to demand proof for something that by its very nature cannot be proven. But I will admit that materially there is no difference between claiming God exists or another claiming the spaghetti monster exists. You want proof that God exists and I want proof he doesn't exist. So here we are. Neither one of us able to provide what the other demands. I guess the only observation to be made at this point is that, were I as convinced of his lack of existence as many in here claim to be, the last thing I would do would be to waste my time debating the subject with those who are equally convinced of his existence. What possible gain is there for you to even be having this discussion? What good could it possibly serve if you were actually successful in convincing someone you were right and they were wrong? I don't get it. At least from my side of things, I would have a little satisfaction in possibly swaying someone towards what I believe is a good thing. The same cannot be said for possibly leading someone to absolutely nothing.

 

People are only "hung up" on proof when they actually care what the truth is. People who feel evidence is irrelevant to an argument have no interest whatsoever in better understanding the truth, because it is only ever possible to better your understanding by weighing your current position against the best available evidence. Religion wants to operate in some ethereal nether-world of speculation and gut feelings (though they tend to use euphemisms like 'theology' and 'the Holy Spirit'). There is no other discipline I'm aware of where people generally behave this way, or worse, expect everyone else to let it pass.

 

When knapplc asks for proof of God, he's not only asking for something perfectly reasonable, but for something your God ought to be able to give him. By definition the war God Yahweh both knows what he wants and has the power to give it to him. You, on the other hand, asking for proof that God does not exist is logically impossible. It's impossible to prove a negative. It's impossible to absolutely prove anything does not exist--invisible teapot orbiting Jupiter, the Flying Spaghettic monster, et al. Our positions are not equivalent. Theists have collectively failed to provide a single credible argument or piece of evidence for the existence of God, and not for lack of trying. Their god remains silent, invisible, and does nothing for the benefit of mankind. Even if he exists, he's useless.

 

The reason some of us choose to talk publicly about the self-evident idiocies and hypocrisies of religion is that religion has done a tremendous amount of damage to the health and happiness of people throughout human history, to say nothing of the waste of time and money. Ask yourself if the international conspiracy to rape and torture children, even deaf children, could have gone undiscovered and uninterrupted for so long if the clergy involved had not believed that protecting the image of their church and their god--who himself was too lazy to intervene--was more important than the welfare of children? How many condoms will not be used in sub-Saharan Africa because a scandalous retiree in Rome thought that condoms presented a greater mortal threat to human beings than AIDS? How many people will be sitting in how many pews this very week hearing absolute nonsense preached to them as if it were fact? How much money will they throw away in the offering plate to fund these fraudulent pastors and priests and reverends? I'm really only getting started but I think the point is made.

[JJ Husker]

Husker_x- You may have only been getting started but the only point I got from that could've been stated in one sentence; you don't believe in God and you don't like organized religion.

 

There is a reason I try to keep the two discussions separated. Does God exist is not synonymous with is my religion the only right way. Lots of bad things have happened in the name of religion. Those things have no influence on determining if God exists. Unfortunately for non-believers neither does scientific proof matter. I'm pretty much done here because once again we have reached the inevitable point that some people believe and some don't and neither side is likely to change because of mere words posted on a message board.

[The Dude]

No, the argument isn't as remotely as effective in the opposite. You cannot have a true relationship with someone who isn't there. You cannot experience love, support and comfort from someone who doesn't exist. For those things to be tangible and real, they must be provided by a present person/being.

 

The "free will" concept is a church cop-out. I believed in it for years and years until I recognized it for what it was. It's not a viable explanation for God's ongoing absence.

 

Further, a truly loving god would never have allowed us to be in the position of needing that forgiveness. A truly loving god would forgive you without you having to jump through hoops like this.

Glad I checked to make sure this joke hadn't been made. +1

[knapplc]

He provided her a spot in heaven. And it's sad you won't be joining her.

 

That would be swell if heaven existed. Since it doesn't, it's rather a moot point.

 

But since you bring up heaven, this segues nicely into the very reason I'm not Christian anymore. The straw that broke my belief was the very concept of heaven, hell, and life here on Earth. For God to be a truly loving god, there would be no Earth, there would be no sin, there would be no hell. There would be heaven, or whatever place God exists in, and we would be there with him right now. My mother wouldn't have had to live a devout life, do everything she was supposed to do as a good Christian, then suffer an ignoble death when what she had earned was a nice retirement enjoying her golden years with her husband and family.

 

A truly loving god would not have put her through the tribulations she went through in her life, nor would he have banished her to Earth for a crime she didn't commit ("Adam & Eve" did), nor would he have allowed her the chance to fall away from his love/grace. A truly loving father would have placed her in his house at her creation, to live with him in love and peace.

 

We all agree that's within God's power, right? If not, God is no longer omnipotent.

 

It is an absurd "explanation" of bronze-age people to think that we are all banished here to this semi-hell because of the sin of some progenitor couple before time began. It is an absurd "explanation" to think that we should have to spend our lives to earn a place in the home of an all-loving God's house. We should already be there. Everything in Christian theology is an after-the-fact attempt to explain why we aren't, and it doesn't make sense.

 

Christian mythology is the kind of mythology people living 2,000 and 3,000 years ago would buy into. It's an attempt by people who don't understand the environment in which they live to explain what they experience. The Christian God is no different than any one of 1,000 other gods out there. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh - born of a virgin mother (also built an ark to save his family from a flood). Gilgamesh predates Judaism by 1,000 or more years. Read about various Egyptian gods and Pharaohs who were born of virgin birth, including such notables as Ra (the sun god), Apis (the bull god) and Amenophis III, a pharaoh born of a virgin mother, prophesied by a holy man, and adored by three magi after his birth. Look at Odin, who hung from the world tree to gain the wisdom of writing, died, and was reborn after his tribulation.

 

The stories in the bible are not only not unique, some of them (most of them?) are wholly co-opted from other religions. Heck, the prophesy of Isaiah of the impending "virgin birth" of the messiah is in all likelihood a mistranslation of the Hebrew into Greek.

 

So you're talking about myths from all over the region of the world in which ancient Hebrews found themselves all being wrapped up into their mythology, written into their holy book, and today we're supposed to buy into it as "written by God." It's not. Read up on other religions and you'll see just how many of them loaned stories to the Judeo-Christian myths.

[JJ Husker]

Knapp- I would be interested to hear your answer for this/these question(s).

 

Why are we here?

What is the meaning of life?

[knapplc]

Why are we here - cosmic accident. Molecules combined, developed and became what we see today as "life." The similarities of DNA between various disparate species point to commonality of source, and we know the basic mechanics of the evolution of life. It's there in the scientific record, and that record is being filled in and added to daily. Why we are here is no longer a mystery. The mechanics of it have yet to be 100% defined, but we're getting there.

 

What is the meaning of life - promotion of the species. As humans with sentience our inclination is to believe that there is "more" there, but there isn't. Life is what it is, it exists and then it ends. Recent studies hint toward a finite lifespan for the universe, showing us that life really has no meaning. It just is, and when the time is right, it won't be anymore.

[lo country]

Bottom line.........

 

It is about relationships with Christ not a religion. Heart knowledge vs head knowledge.

 

The Bible specifically says that His ways confound the wise and that His ways are not ours. I laugh when those who choose not believe have all the answers. If you do not believe then great. You want to use logic and science to prove God does't exist. Great. That is why it is called faith. Is is very prideful, IMO, to think that as mere humans we have answers to put God in a box and prove Him to be a myth and can so easily "prove he doesn't exist".

 

Also to use logic that is so prevalent. If you do not know Christ, how can you know his desire for you? How can you know what he is doing in your life? How can you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit? How can you feel his peace in tragedy? That's right. You can't. No more than you can get any of the above from some stranger in China.

 

Before Christ ever wanted anything from us, He wanted something for us.

 

Heart vs head fellas. Heart vs head.......................

 

Some good resources for those who are interested in seeing the other side of the discussion:

 

Carm.org

The Case for Christ

Voice of the Martyrs

 

Find the truth on your own, what ever you determine it to be from your own research. Not folks on an internet board.

[knapplc]

Find the truth on your own, what ever you determine it to be from your own research. Not folks on an internet board.

 

So you've done that research? You've looked into other religions, other mythologies, other stories?

 

You've read the Epic of Gilgamesh? You've researched stories of virgin birth from other religions? You've researched other resurrection stories, other afterlife stories, other world/life origin stories? Because if you haven't - and I'm guessing you haven't done so with an open heart/mind, or you wouldn't be so adamantly Christian - then you cannot tell anyone with any kind of authority that they need to "find the truth."

 

You cannot know the truth if you haven't done the research.