So why is it so hard to believe God is.....

[JJ Husker]

Why are we here - cosmic accident. Molecules combined, developed and became what we see today as "life." The similarities of DNA between various disparate species point to commonality of source, and we know the basic mechanics of the evolution of life. It's there in the scientific record, and that record is being filled in and added to daily. Why we are here is no longer a mystery. The mechanics of it have yet to be 100% defined, but we're getting there.

 

What is the meaning of life - promotion of the species. As humans with sentience our inclination is to believe that there is "more" there, but there isn't. Life is what it is, it exists and then it ends. Recent studies hint toward a finite lifespan for the universe, showing us that life really has no meaning. It just is, and when the time is right, it won't be anymore.

 

The question wasn't "how" but rather "why". Your answer for the first question was how.

 

If your answer to the second question is really all you think there is, I am impressed at any day you can drag yourself out of bed. So you are here for no better reason than to promote (whatever that means) the species and then to die? So it would seem your view of something like suicide or homocide should be no big deal. With no other purpose those things would be no more than shortening a timeframe.

 

BTW, I like how you claim our inclination is to think there is more and then state so matter of factly "but there isn't ". How does that statement of your belief differ from a person who claims God exists? Should I ask you for proof for "but there isn't"?

[knapplc]

Since we're giving out sources, and we're talking about all the research we've done, here's some more sources for those who are interested in the truth:

 

Epic of Gilgamesh

 

The Koran

 

Parallels of The Bible and other ancient religions

 

Creation Stories From Around the World

 

Afterlife Stories From Around the World

 

 

There are tons of resources out there. None are less believable than the Bible.

[JJ Husker]

Find the truth on your own, what ever you determine it to be from your own research. Not folks on an internet board.

 

So you've done that research? You've looked into other religions, other mythologies, other stories?

 

You've read the Epic of Gilgamesh? You've researched stories of virgin birth from other religions? You've researched other resurrection stories, other afterlife stories, other world/life origin stories? Because if you haven't - and I'm guessing you haven't done so with an open heart/mind, or you wouldn't be so adamantly Christian - then you cannot tell anyone with any kind of authority that they need to "find the truth."

 

You cannot know the truth if you haven't done the research.

 

And there it is. Somebody has reached a different conclusion so apparently they didn't research it enough or know as much. How tall of a ladder does it take to get on that horse? I hate to tell ya but reaching the truth does not require researching all these other things. And for sake of argument, if it did, even with all the research you have done, you have not covered every conceivable base.

[Blackshirts007]

I believe in God and that we were created by "him." I guess i'd rather believe in God and that he died for our sins etc and have a spot in heaven if there is one, than to risk it and believe in science and not believe and then end up in hell if there is one. I wouldn't gain anything by running around saying there is not God when i can just as easily believe in God and his word and have a spot in heaven, if there is one.

[knapplc]

Why are we here - cosmic accident. Molecules combined, developed and became what we see today as "life." The similarities of DNA between various disparate species point to commonality of source, and we know the basic mechanics of the evolution of life. It's there in the scientific record, and that record is being filled in and added to daily. Why we are here is no longer a mystery. The mechanics of it have yet to be 100% defined, but we're getting there.

 

What is the meaning of life - promotion of the species. As humans with sentience our inclination is to believe that there is "more" there, but there isn't. Life is what it is, it exists and then it ends. Recent studies hint toward a finite lifespan for the universe, showing us that life really has no meaning. It just is, and when the time is right, it won't be anymore.

 

The question wasn't "how" but rather "why". Your answer for the first question was how.

 

If your answer to the second question is really all you think there is, I am impressed at any day you can drag yourself out of bed. So you are here for no better reason than to promote (whatever that means) the species and then to die? So it would seem your view of something like suicide or homocide should be no big deal. With no other purpose those things would be no more than shortening a timeframe.

 

BTW, I like how you claim our inclination is to think there is more and then state so matter of factly "but there isn't ". How does that statement of your belief differ from a person who claims God exists? Should I ask you for proof for "but there isn't"?

 

I linked to why there isn't more. The higgs bosun research is showing us that the universe is finite. Did you read that link or just ignore it because it doesn't reinforce your belief? And again, for the umpteenth time in this and many other threads, it isn't incumbent on non-believers to prove that God does not exist. It is the job of those who claim he does to offer that proof (which is not forthcoming). As recently as two years ago I was on your side of the fence, having spent 40 years heavily involved in the church, and I didn't have that proof. You don't either, and won't, because no proof exists. Because God doesn't exist. Neither does Ra, Odin, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, or any other deity you want to follow.

 

I answered the "Why are we here" question that way because it's the most logical way to answer it. There is no "why" of our existence. It's a cosmic accident, a happy arrangement of molecules. "Why" presupposes that a purpose, a meaning underlies our existence, but ample research out there shows that there is no purpose, that it's just an accident.

 

"Why" predetermines the answer. "Why" implies that someone or something directed the existence of life, and that's thinking inside a box. Free yourself from that box, and you'll begin to understand. If you choose to stay in that box that's fine, but you cannot claim to "know" anything whilst remaining in there.

 

Finally, I don't need some deity to exist for me to live. I don't need "god" to drag myself out of bed. That's an absurd line of thinking - without "god," life is meaningless, so let's just continue to believe in god.

 

If you believe in a god because the alternative - that we're just here by accident and life is essentially meaningless - is too unpalatable for you, what kind of belief is that? What does that make your faith? It's a pretty empty reason to be religious if you ask me.

[knapplc]

Find the truth on your own, what ever you determine it to be from your own research. Not folks on an internet board.

 

So you've done that research? You've looked into other religions, other mythologies, other stories?

 

You've read the Epic of Gilgamesh? You've researched stories of virgin birth from other religions? You've researched other resurrection stories, other afterlife stories, other world/life origin stories? Because if you haven't - and I'm guessing you haven't done so with an open heart/mind, or you wouldn't be so adamantly Christian - then you cannot tell anyone with any kind of authority that they need to "find the truth."

 

You cannot know the truth if you haven't done the research.

 

And there it is. Somebody has reached a different conclusion so apparently they didn't research it enough or know as much. How tall of a ladder does it take to get on that horse? I hate to tell ya but reaching the truth does not require researching all these other things. And for sake of argument, if it did, even with all the research you have done, you have not covered every conceivable base.

 

So you admit you haven't done that research. That's fine, but don't get offended when someone else does and finds a different answer. You're acting as if research, study, knowledge is a bad thing. It's not - it's actually quite a good thing.

 

I don't have to cover "every conceivable base" to reach a conclusion. Much as Gallup runs accurate nationwide polls by taking opinions from a few thousand people, a sampling of even a few other religions, other sources is enough to poke substantial, critical holes in the Christian mythology.

 

Who's on the high horse? The guy who has read one book, studied one religion, but claims to know the truth about all of them, or the guy who has done the legwork on several others? Don't stand there in your box and tell me the world is flat. I know it isn't. I've done the research.

[knapplc]

I believe in God and that we were created by "him." I guess i'd rather believe in God and that he died for our sins etc and have a spot in heaven if there is one, than to risk it and believe in science and not believe and then end up in hell if there is one. I wouldn't gain anything by running around saying there is not God when i can just as easily believe in God and his word and have a spot in heaven, if there is one.

 

So it's less a true belief and more of a hedging of your bet. If there is no god, you've lost nothing by spending your life believing in him. If there is a god, you get into heaven.

 

That is an absolutely fantastic concept, and I have no problem with it, presuming that the Christian god is the god that ends up being real. But when you die and Allah weighs your soul, and it turns out you've been an infidel all your life... I have bad news for you.

 

Or if you get to Valhalla and Odin decides you didn't die honorably in battle and you're not allowed in.

 

Or Jupiter decides you didn't earn your way into the Elysian Plain and you end up in Hades.

 

Or you're deemed unworthy of reincarnation as a higher being and you end up reincarnated as a dung beetle after going through the Bardos.

 

Or you get to the Hall of Two Truths and Anubis decides your soul weighs more than a feather, and you're condemned to the Devourer.

 

 

 

I think the most important question is not "do you believe in god," but "do you believe in the right god?"

 

And how do you know you do?

[ZRod]

I believe in God and that we were created by "him." I guess i'd rather believe in God and that he died for our sins etc and have a spot in heaven if there is one, than to risk it and believe in science and not believe and then end up in hell if there is one. I wouldn't gain anything by running around saying there is not God when i can just as easily believe in God and his word and have a spot in heaven, if there is one.

Then you best stop getting drunk and sleeping around, because Jesus didn't much care for that. And you don't gain much from it other than a perma ban from heaven.

[The Dude]

I believe in God and that we were created by "him." I guess i'd rather believe in God and that he died for our sins etc and have a spot in heaven if there is one, than to risk it and believe in science and not believe and then end up in hell if there is one. I wouldn't gain anything by running around saying there is not God when i can just as easily believe in God and his word and have a spot in heaven, if there is one.

Don't you think He could see through that?

 

 

I don't think you get into heaven just by "believing" god exists. . . just in case.

[walksalone]

If I'm a Native American, who doesn't have the same system of beliefs or believe in god, am I soulless heathen, that is going to burn in hell? If you can't answer the question, then do you question your own faith, or lack the ability to answer tough questions?

 

My comments toward you were not snarky. I'm just giving you straight-forward answers to your questions. I understand how that can be misinterpreted through text.

 

The ones toward Strigori were a little snarky though, because quite frankly, his arguments in this thread have been atrocious. Refer back to knapplc's posts responding to him, and that's why I say that. You can't come on here, take one tiny aspect of Christianity and spin it in a way that favors your side of the argument, all while misinterpreting the entire concept that you were trying to use as an argument.

 

Let's put it this way: There is nothing that we as humans can do to disprove the existence of God, or to prove His existence for that matter. But when people are trying to use a ridiculous argument against my religion, why would I not respond and set it straight?

 

You haven't answered any of my questions yet. Don't make statements that will be questioned, and then not wuss out and not answer them.

 

I haven't used any "ridiculous" argument. I'm asking you, because you worship God, does this make you better than me? Because by you saying I can't save myself, because I don't believe, paints a picture of you projecting yourself to better than others based on your beliefs.

 

[HuskerShark]

 

Now what are you waiting on? I honestly don't know.

[walksalone]

If I'm a Native American, who doesn't have the same system of beliefs or believe in god, am I soulless heathen, that is going to burn in hell? If you can't answer the question, then do you question your own faith, or lack the ability to answer tough questions?

 

I can't make it more simply than that...

 

Just don't pull a sub husker and answer it with a different question, or just say, it's not up to you, because that is wussing out...

[HuskerShark]

If I'm a Native American, who doesn't have the same system of beliefs or believe in god, am I soulless heathen, that is going to burn in hell? If you can't answer the question, then do you question your own faith, or lack the ability to answer tough questions?

 

I can't make it more simply than that...

 

Just don't pull a sub husker and answer it with a different question, or just say, it's not up to you, because that is wussing out...

 

This is not wussing out. I'm giving you the same exact answer as I gave you before:

 

That is not my decision or judgment to make. If you don't like that answer, then too bad. But I'm not going to be the douchebag that tries to sentence people to either Heaven or hell because it's not my room to speak.

[knapplc]

If I'm a Native American, who doesn't have the same system of beliefs or believe in god, am I soulless heathen, that is going to burn in hell? If you can't answer the question, then do you question your own faith, or lack the ability to answer tough questions?

 

I have no idea why this question is so hard to answer. It's pretty easy to find the answer, and anyone who professes to be Christian should know this by heart.

 

The answer to your question, walks, is that you are going to hell. If you don't believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and you do not accept him as your lord and savior, you are going to hell.

 

Biblical support for this:

 

---

John, Chapter 14:

 

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. ² My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? ³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. ⁴ You know the way to the place where I am going.”

⁵ Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

⁶ Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ⁷ If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

 

---

 

John, Chapter 15:

 

⁵ “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. ⁶ If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. ⁷ If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. ⁸ This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

 

---

Revelation, Chapter 20:

 

 

 

¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

---

 

And we know the Book of Life is an important thing because of earlier references in Revelation:

 

Revelation, Chapter 3:

 

3 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write:

 

 

These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. ² Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. ³ Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

 

⁴ Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. ⁵ The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. ⁶ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

---

 

So, the answer isn't ambiguous, and it isn't some mystery left up to God that we can't fathom. God/Jesus told us in the New Testament what would happen to those who don't believe, and that is that their names will not be written in the Book of Life, they will be cast into the pit of fire with Satan, and they will die "the second death" upon the day of judgment.

[HuskerShark]

If I'm a Native American, who doesn't have the same system of beliefs or believe in god, am I soulless heathen, that is going to burn in hell? If you can't answer the question, then do you question your own faith, or lack the ability to answer tough questions?

 

I have no idea why this question is so hard to answer. It's pretty easy to find the answer, and anyone who professes to be Christian should know this by heart.

 

The answer to your question, walks, is that you are going to hell. If you don't believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and you do not accept him as your lord and savior, you are going to hell.

 

Biblical support for this:

 

---

John, Chapter 14:

 

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. ² My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? ³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. ⁴ You know the way to the place where I am going.”

⁵ Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

⁶ Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ⁷ If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

 

---

 

John, Chapter 15:

 

⁵ “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. ⁶ If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. ⁷ If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. ⁸ This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

 

---

Revelation, Chapter 20:

 

 

 

¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

---

 

And we know the Book of Life is an important thing because of earlier references in Revelation:

 

Revelation, Chapter 3:

 

3 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write:

 

 

These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. ² Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. ³ Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

 

⁴ Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. ⁵ The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. ⁶ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

---

 

So, the answer isn't ambiguous, and it isn't some mystery left up to God that we can't fathom. God/Jesus told us in the New Testament what would happen to those who don't believe, and that is that their names will not be written in the Book of Life, they will be cast into the pit of fire with Satan, and they will die "the second death" upon the day of judgment.

 

Notice that almost every single one of those passages were Jesus talking. I, as a mortal average human being, don't feel as if I have the right to make judgment calls on whether or not a person will be allowed to enter Heaven.