Government Shutdown

[knapplc]

I agree that its pathetic that the NIH can't treat cancer patients, and the WIC is shuttered. That both things are not considered essential is beyond my understanding. There's a simple way to fix it: pass a clean continuing resolution.

 

But there is one reason we are here. One singular reason. The right cannot accept that they lost on Obamacare. They exhausted legitimate means to stop it and resorted to this. They feel that all of the trouble brought on by this shutdown is worth it to keep poor people from getting health insurance. Make no mistake, this is the Tea Party faction wreaking havoc on our system of government and taking down a once great political party.

 

Sure, we can piecemeal back together things that should be funded and things that shouldn't during the standoff, but isn't that the point? Neither side can agree on what should be funded. Should the Democrats cave on certain issues? Maybe, but then what? Then you've legitimized this method for "governing" and nothing can ever get done. The house will do this over and over again. Hell, you've seen HuskerLuke saying it earlier in the thread, that they should do this for the debt ceiling debate too!

 

I don't believe this is me being partisan or beholden to "my party". This is me being pragmatic.

 

Agree on both bold statements.

[zoogs]

Hell, you've seen HuskerLuke saying it earlier in the thread, that they should do this for the debt ceiling debate too!

 

Small but important correction: I said Republicans should've done this on the debt ceiling instead. I don't want to re-litigate this point, but the debt ceiling is a much better target for this sort of stand because the odds of people getting hurt are far lower and the odds of gaining policy ground are much greater.

 

I'm curious what you mean by this.

 

 

[HuskerLuke]

I'm curious what you mean by this.

 

There's no chance at all that the debt ceiling would not be raised. Defaulting is unthinkable. That's why parties only dare go there when their cause has popular backing (GOP's spending cuts in the last debt ceiling debate, both parties forcing Carter to abandon an oil import fee in 1980). Should Republicans make a stand on the debt ceiling, Obama will cut a deal. He would have no choice.

[knapplc]

[tschu]

This bickering is asinine. If you people won't stop digging deeper trenches around your party affiliation you will never ever see what's really going on here.

 

This country is playing Russian roulette with its economy for no other reason than party politics. And the electorate is supporting them.

 

This crap in this thread is exactly why we're in this mess. Just keep supporting your party forever, damn the consequences. No matter how far they stray from what you originally believed in, just vote R or D whenever you get to the polls, and BY GOD do not even think to question what they tell you - you might not like the answers you get.

This is exactly why I'm no longer a registered Republican.

 

That said, if you're still saying that in this situation both sides share the blame . . . well I can't see it. If you do think that, why do you think so?

 

Ideological entrenchment isn't relegated solely to one side in this fiasco. Does one side own more of the blame? Yes, absolutely. But that doesn't mean the other is right in all things. Surely you're not saying the Democrats are innocent in the drama enveloping Washington?

Meh. This fiasco is about 90% the fault of Republicans and 10% the fault of Democrats. Nobody is toootally innocent but let's not pretend that it isn't horrifically one-sided

[walksalone]

This bickering is asinine. If you people won't stop digging deeper trenches around your party affiliation you will never ever see what's really going on here.

 

This country is playing Russian roulette with its economy for no other reason than party politics. And the electorate is supporting them.

 

This crap in this thread is exactly why we're in this mess. Just keep supporting your party forever, damn the consequences. No matter how far they stray from what you originally believed in, just vote R or D whenever you get to the polls, and BY GOD do not even think to question what they tell you - you might not like the answers you get.

 

A lot of sheep in this thread, and good job outta you Knap, stepping up to be a sheppard...

[BIGREDIOWAN]

Both parties suck and every single one of them is to blame and if you're hardcore red or blue you're part of the problem as well. These people can't work together so we need A LOT of new people who can. I'm sick of their crybaby blame everyone else bull$hit and I don't care what their excuses are.

[walksalone]

Both parties suck and every single one of them is to blame and if you're hardcore red or blue you're part of the problem as well. These people can't work together so we need A LOT of new people who can. I'm sick of their crybaby blame everyone else bull$hit and I don't care what their excuses are.

 

Preach it...

 

But get ready for...

 

People love to drop the "well all politicians suck" and "blame both parties" lines because they either:

(A) Don't understand what is happening, which I don't think is you

(B) Want to come off as a moderate when they really aren't

© Recognize that their party has screwed the pooch, but want to somehow cast blame on the other party nonetheless.

[Excel]

Both sides are at fault...

 

They could come to an agreement about this, but it appears that they won't. If the gov't shuts down, it doesn't affect them, so why should they care...

 

Both sides are not at fault. They simply aren't.

 

Bro, don't let the media get to you... They're going to get you all twisted up and pointing fingers...

People love to drop the "well all politicians suck" and "blame both parties" lines because they either:

(A) Don't understand what is happening, which I don't think is you

(B) Want to come off as a moderate when they really aren't

© Recognize that their party has screwed the pooch, but want to somehow cast blame on the other party nonetheless.

Because people who legitimately dislike the dysfunctional, unrepresentative and corrupt two party system we have in America which includes "all politicians" don't exist? You have to be ignorant, a false moderate or a bitter party supporter? That's a load of crap.

 

Party politics have destroyed what chance we had at Democracy, they've created a monopoly on power forcing out anyone who doesn't play their game. Both parties are beholden to big donors and corporate/"special" interests, they are only held "accountable" once every 2-6 years when they campaign in gerrymandered districts with astro-turfed public support and obscene amounts of money burned on what are essentially advertising campaigns and outright lies. Furthermore the parties and their pundits propagate the myth of a polarized nation, one in which people in Mississippi are convinced they are somehow incomprehensibly different than people from Massachusetts and that they share few if any values, never mind that we, for the most part, agree on just about everything important, yes, even abortion. Oh and yea actually both parties do use essentially the same methods and tactics as the other side when they're in power or out.

 

Where they differ is in which group they claim as patrons. The right, at least for votes, is still indebted to rural poor and middle class conservative white Christians, a group they've somehow brainwashed into believing that Darwinian cutthroat capitalism is good for them and in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The left tends to pander to the poor, minorities and urban whites and has continually failed in adequately representing and forwarding their interests though I feel they do it better than the right. They don't lie to their base, they just suck at helping them and aren't realistic in their approaches.

 

Its not simply a game, its a business, an industry. You have almost no say in how you are governed. These are career politicians that stand almost no real chance of losing an election. They rake in tons of money. Everything about our system, from the elections to the media firestorms and political crises we see between elections, is carefully planned and orchestrated by people who do this for a living. This isn't an Alex Jones BS conspiracy theory its a fact of American life and in many ways that's more painful. Take a step back from whatever you've been convinced your party affiliation is and look at the system and processes at work objectively. Its all a sham.

 

The fact is, not all politicians suck, just all of the ones we have now as well as many of the ones we used to have and most of those aspiring to become one in the future. I'm sure that somewhere in the world, probably in Switzerland, there's a politician that isn't so bad but not here.

 

Voting is like singing the National Anthem at a baseball game and walking away with a smug feeling that "Hey, I'm a real patriot, I support the troops and all that jazz..." It's a cheap cop out designed to make people feel like they have a say when they don't. They pick between two corporate parties that take turns screwing them.

[JJ Husker]

Very nice description of our system/problem Bucky. +1 to you sir.

[HuskerLuke]

Agreed, it's an excellent description. I might disagree in a couple areas where I think certain outcomes are more incidental rather than intentional, but the fact that the two major parties jealously guard their joint power monopoly and overwhelmingly draw their donations from large corporations/organizations and very rich individuals isn't disputable.

[walksalone]

Because people who legitimately dislike the dysfunctional, unrepresentative and corrupt two party system we have in America which includes "all politicians" don't exist? You have to be ignorant, a false moderate or a bitter party supporter? That's a load of crap.

 

Party politics have destroyed what chance we had at Democracy, they've created a monopoly on power forcing out anyone who doesn't play their game. Both parties are beholden to big donors and corporate/"special" interests, they are only held "accountable" once every 2-6 years when they campaign in gerrymandered districts with astro-turfed public support and obscene amounts of money burned on what are essentially advertising campaigns and outright lies. Furthermore the parties and their pundits propagate the myth of a polarized nation, one in which people in Mississippi are convinced they are somehow incomprehensibly different than people from Massachusetts and that they share few if any values, never mind that we, for the most part, agree on just about everything important, yes, even abortion. Oh and yea actually both parties do use essentially the same methods and tactics as the other side when they're in power or out.

 

Where they differ is in which group they claim as patrons. The right, at least for votes, is still indebted to rural poor and middle class conservative white Christians, a group they've somehow brainwashed into believing that Darwinian cutthroat capitalism is good for them and in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The left tends to pander to the poor, minorities and urban whites and has continually failed in adequately representing and forwarding their interests though I feel they do it better than the right. They don't lie to their base, they just suck at helping them and aren't realistic in their approaches.

 

Its not simply a game, its a business, an industry. You have almost no say in how you are governed. These are career politicians that stand almost no real chance of losing an election. They rake in tons of money. Everything about our system, from the elections to the media firestorms and political crises we see between elections, is carefully planned and orchestrated by people who do this for a living. This isn't an Alex Jones BS conspiracy theory its a fact of American life and in many ways that's more painful. Take a step back from whatever you've been convinced your party affiliation is and look at the system and processes at work objectively. Its all a sham.

 

The fact is, not all politicians suck, just all of the ones we have now as well as many of the ones we used to have and most of those aspiring to become one in the future. I'm sure that somewhere in the world, probably in Switzerland, there's a politician that isn't so bad but not here.

 

Voting is like singing the National Anthem at a baseball game and walking away with a smug feeling that "Hey, I'm a real patriot, I support the troops and all that jazz..." It's a cheap cop out designed to make people feel like they have a say when they don't. They pick between two corporate parties that take turns screwing them.

 

f*ckin a... +1

[zoogs]

I'm curious what you mean by this.

 

There's no chance at all that the debt ceiling would not be raised. Defaulting is unthinkable. That's why parties only dare go there when their cause has popular backing (GOP's spending cuts in the last debt ceiling debate, both parties forcing Carter to abandon an oil import fee in 1980). Should Republicans make a stand on the debt ceiling, Obama will cut a deal. He would have no choice.

 

Wouldn't you say both sides have an equal capacity to make a stand if they want to?

 

Why is Obama the one without leverage in this scenario? Defaulting is unthinkable to everyone involved. As far as public backing goes, the Republicans didn't have the backing not to pass this law. They didn't and don't have the backing to overturn it. I can imagine a plausible situation where they have leverage if they can put a knife to the throat of something the Democrats care equally about, but that doesn't exactly describe something as universally necessary as the debt ceiling issue, does it?

[VectorVictor]

Who blamed the GOP for defeating a bill to restore National Park funding?

 

This guy:

 

Didn't the House reject a bill that would have specifically funded (and kept open) Federal monuments and national parks?

 

Or is that something that we just ignore because it gets in the way of Luke and BRB's herpaderp-a-thon trying to convince us that starving children and mothers are inconsequential?

Heh.

 

Hey, I'm just parroting what I read on Fox News. Isn't that part of the handbook?

 

The House Rules Committee is scheduled to meet at 10:15 a.m. Wednesday to consider the three measures backed by House Republicans, which are aimed at reopening parks and monuments, continuing veterans’ benefits and allowing the municipal government of the District of Columbia to function.

 

Unlike on Tuesday, the latest bills will not be treated by House GOP leaders as suspension bills, which means they only need a simple majority vote to pass.On Tuesday, each measure needed 286 votes to pass. The parks funding bill went down by a tally of 252-176, the veterans programs by 264-164 and the D.C. government funding by 265-163.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/02/waiting-game-pols-brace-for-prolonged-stalemate-amid-partial-govt-suspension/

 

Seems as though that had there been a sincere attempt to pass this piecemeal crap on the part of Republicans, they wouldn't have sent them as suspension bills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lo country]

One needs to only read all 4 pages and see what is wrong with this system. BOTH sides supporting their cause and refusing to acknowledge culpability in the other.

 

I am just as guilty as anyone.

 

The reality is Obamacare is law. Has been for several years now. Politicians and the public don't like it, there are other ways to remedy this. namely, let it go into effect and if some are correct, it is economically non-sustainable. It will collapse on its own merits. If it is as beneficial as some say, then a lot of folks will finally get insurance. Let the market decide its fate.

 

It irks me to no end that this budget date didn't sneak up on anyone. It is not like it changes every year. YET our elected officials decide, what seems like a few hours before it is required by law, to sit down and try to create a budget. You think its bad now, wait until the debt ceiling fight which is set to be raised Oct 17.

 

Lastly, politicians seem to have lost sight of the very thing they are to do, REPRESENT THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES. The reality is that right now, 100's of thousand federal employees (largest employer in the country) have now been laid off. Add to to that a like number of "essential" who are unsure if they will even receive back pay, but are still on the job. Nothing helps the economy like the biggest "company" going broke. Not to mention, we look like a laughing stock (IMO) to the rest of the world in that we can't even pass a budget.

 

Unsure how to fix it, but the bottom line is our current system seems broken to the point of "combat ineffective" (military term to describe inability to perform the job).