Junior Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Sometimes my children don't get things they want, or are forced to do something they would rather not by myself or their mother. Their small world becomes chaos. They become mad, frustrated and confused. My wife and I don't do this to be mean, we do it to hopefully make them better adults (my children are 4, being an adult is an eternity away in their minds and they have no clue what it even entails). Our children respond, "I don't love you! Your MEAN!" We continue to love them even though they don't see or understand the reasons behind our actions or in some cases, inaction. Sure. But is saying "you can't have 5 teddy bears" the same as saying "I'm going to watch you painfully die of cancer" or "Have fun starving to death"? Comparing "kid wanting teddy bear" to "cancer" is the same as comparing "my problems" to "God's problems".... Is your kid going to die if they don't get the teddy bear? Because if the answer is "no", then it isn't the same comparison. At all. 1 Link to comment
funhusker Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 To answer the "what about people who never knew Christ?" question... 1 Peter 4:6 New International VersionFor this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. Our Lord also emphasized the "eternal punishment" of hell: When Jesus spoke of the coming last judgment and the separating of the righteous from the evil, he will say to the latter, "Out of my sight you condemned, into that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (cf. Mt 25:31ff). Jesus also spoke of "risking the fires of Gehenna" for serious sins, like anger and hatred (Mt 5:21ff), and adultery and impurity (Mt 5:27ff). Given this understanding, we believe that the sin of Adam and Eve had closed the Gates of Heaven. The holy souls awaited the Redeemer in the land of the dead, or hell. Our Lord offered the perfect sacrifice for all sin by dying on the cross, the redemptive act that touches all people of every time — past, present and future. He was then buried. During that time, He descended among the dead: His soul, separated from His body, joined the holy souls awaiting the Savior in the Land of the Dead. Remember St. Paul wrote, "'He ascended' — what does this mean but that He had first descended into the lower regions of the earth? He who descended is the very one who ascended high above the heavens, that He might fill all men with His gifts" (Eph 4:9-10). His descent among the dead brought to completion the proclamation of the Gospel and liberated those holy souls who had long awaited their Redeemer. The Gates of Heaven were now open, and these holy souls entered everlasting happiness enjoying the beatific vision. Please note Jesus did not deliver those souls damned to eternal punishment in hell nor did He destroy hell as such; they remained in that state and place of damnation begun at the time of their particular judgment. The Catechism highlights the importance of this event: "This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption" (No. 634). Link to comment
funhusker Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Sometimes my children don't get things they want, or are forced to do something they would rather not by myself or their mother. Their small world becomes chaos. They become mad, frustrated and confused. My wife and I don't do this to be mean, we do it to hopefully make them better adults (my children are 4, being an adult is an eternity away in their minds and they have no clue what it even entails). Our children respond, "I don't love you! Your MEAN!" We continue to love them even though they don't see or understand the reasons behind our actions or in some cases, inaction. Sure. But is saying "you can't have 5 teddy bears" the same as saying "I'm going to watch you painfully die of cancer" or "Have fun starving to death"? Comparing "kid wanting teddy bear" to "cancer" is the same as comparing "my problems" to "God's problems".... Is your kid going to die if they don't get the teddy bear? Because if the answer is "no", then it isn't the same comparison. At all. I wasn't the one comparing teddy bears to cancer.... I'm not comparing my childrens' "problems" to the plights of the world. I'm comparing our (mankind's) confusion and frustration in God's works to the confusion and frustrations our children feel when they don't get everything they want. Our world is in chaos, people are suffering, murder and rape happen, pediatric cancer happens. And none of us understand why. That's my point.... Link to comment
strigori Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 The basic question is, Does God have the power to eliminate "sin" and place every human ever in existence in heaven to live with Him eternally RIGHT NOW? The eliminate sin part I can easily answer as He's already done that on the cross. The heaven pickup thing I don't really know how to approach. Let's say we were in heaven, then. Would it be possible to want out? Because if not then you have no free will and you could come to the same conclusion that God doesn't love you, but if you did want out, you could come to the same conclusion that God isn't all-powerful and also the same reality where His creation uses it's freedom to rebel. These are my poorly formed lunch time thoughts. 1) God did not "eliminate" sin. Sin is why you're not in heaven right now. If there was no sin, no gulf would exist between God & Man, and we'd be back in Eden/paradise/whatever where we're all walking around naked with God. Unless we're saying God didn't/doesn't have the power to return things the way they were before. Jesus' act of saving us all from our sins doesn't/didn't have the power to recreate that sinless, perfect & pure relationship we had with God when it was just Adam & Eve. If that's the case, he did half a job, didn't he? Shouldn't he have done everything, put it all back to rights again, like God's very own Omega 13? And if he can't, we're back to the "not omnipotent" problem. 2) The "wanting out" question doesn't make much sense. What if you want out of heaven after you die now? Do you get out? Where do you go? Will you have free will in heaven when you die, or do you only get that here? Being human, we cannot comprehend the the limits of GOD's powers (the why's, what for's, how come's, where's and the whens). Isn't that the point? We can't (humanly) comprehend something that is outside of our abilities! Ah, the core copout that is actually the reason religion exists in the first place. Primitive man was terrified of not having answers, so he invented gods as answers. And that answer remains a crutch for the weakminded to not seek a real answer. Link to comment
Landlord Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Did you just call me weak-minded that's against the rules I'm reporting you Link to comment
TAKODA Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 The basic question is, Does God have the power to eliminate "sin" and place every human ever in existence in heaven to live with Him eternally RIGHT NOW? The eliminate sin part I can easily answer as He's already done that on the cross. The heaven pickup thing I don't really know how to approach. Let's say we were in heaven, then. Would it be possible to want out? Because if not then you have no free will and you could come to the same conclusion that God doesn't love you, but if you did want out, you could come to the same conclusion that God isn't all-powerful and also the same reality where His creation uses it's freedom to rebel. These are my poorly formed lunch time thoughts. 1) God did not "eliminate" sin. Sin is why you're not in heaven right now. If there was no sin, no gulf would exist between God & Man, and we'd be back in Eden/paradise/whatever where we're all walking around naked with God. Unless we're saying God didn't/doesn't have the power to return things the way they were before. Jesus' act of saving us all from our sins doesn't/didn't have the power to recreate that sinless, perfect & pure relationship we had with God when it was just Adam & Eve. If that's the case, he did half a job, didn't he? Shouldn't he have done everything, put it all back to rights again, like God's very own Omega 13? And if he can't, we're back to the "not omnipotent" problem. 2) The "wanting out" question doesn't make much sense. What if you want out of heaven after you die now? Do you get out? Where do you go? Will you have free will in heaven when you die, or do you only get that here? Being human, we cannot comprehend the the limits of GOD's powers (the why's, what for's, how come's, where's and the whens). Isn't that the point? We can't (humanly) comprehend something that is outside of our abilities! Ah, the core copout that is actually the reason religion exists in the first place. Primitive man was terrified of not having answers, so he invented gods as answers. And that answer remains a crutch for the weakminded to not seek a real answer. So enlighten us weak minded followers to the truth oh wise one? You can throw your sh*t out here and condemn the fact that we who believe in a higher power don't have the answer, what about you ~ waiting! I don't want to debate this because you or I or anyone for that matter don't have the answers, but don't sit on your perch and thinking you are above me or anyone else because I point out that we as humans can't think beyond the realm in which we live! Link to comment
strigori Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Sometimes we just don't know the answer. Sometimes there is no answer. There is an element of randomness and chaos that is just part of being. Take a trip back in time and try to explain anything of our current existence, It will all sound like crazy magic. Just throwing hands up in the air and giving up as 'only God knows' is short changing the actual looking for an answer. And not looking for one is a detriment to humanity as a whole. Link to comment
Landlord Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Who says that people of faith are giving up on looking for "the answer" whatever the hell that even means Link to comment
The Dude Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 we as humans can't think beyond the realm in which we live! Sure we can. If we can figure out quantum mechanics, some mystical being that let his ape son get nailed to a couple sticks can't be that far beyond our grasp. Link to comment
TAKODA Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Sometimes we just don't know the answer. Sometimes there is no answer. There is an element of randomness and chaos that is just part of being. Take a trip back in time and try to explain anything of our current existence, It will all sound like crazy magic. Just throwing hands up in the air and giving up as 'only God knows' is short changing the actual looking for an answer. And not looking for one is a detriment to humanity as a whole. I have researched and read, and researched and listened to all sides of the arguments and I still am! I am not all knowing nor am I a religious scholar, but I have seen and heard of way too many instances that can't be explained. Yes, I can see where people can become disenchanted. I see many of people who feel that they are being betrayed because our "GOD or Deity" don't come knocking at their front door to introduce him/herself and prove they are real. I don't have the answer to all the questions that are posed by these types of conversations, but you can bet your sweet ass that there are far smarter people than I that don't either and they keep looking for the answers to this day. The fact that people fail or sin is a human thing, not because GOD put you on this earth to fail and he is laughing his arse off that you failed. Look, I don't want to try to convert anyone here but for as many arguments as one can throw up against, there are just as many for ~ so back to square 1, stalemate and if you believe, that’s great, if you don't I have nothing against you just a difference of life experiences and opinion. 1 Link to comment
sd'sker Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 God chose to do all of those things, thus setting the stage for millions of generations of sin and suffering, and for literally billions upon billions of people to fall utterly away from eternal life in heaven. God created that whole scenario, and the fact is he never had to. this always stuck me odd in regards to jesus' sacrifice. he sacrificed his life for all of humanity. who would not do that? and he got to go to heaven and sit at the right side of his father, god. that just does not really seem like a sacrifice or necessary. just my imo. 1 Link to comment
TAKODA Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 we as humans can't think beyond the realm in which we live! Sure we can. If we can figure out quantum mechanics, some mystical being that let his ape son get nailed to a couple sticks can't be that far beyond our grasp. Is that your education talking because if it is, then before you knew anything about quantum physics or mechanics as you put it, you probably wouldn't have believed what you ended up learning about that. Even the highest of scholars don't have a strong grasp of what is possible or what is yet to be discovered on/in our or other realms! Link to comment
The Dude Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 No, I don't know sh#t about quantum mechanics. I'm just saying we as humans are capable of thinking beyond the realm in which we live. Link to comment
TAKODA Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 No, I don't know sh#t about quantum mechanics. I'm just saying we as humans are capable of thinking beyond the realm in which we live. OK, so on a sliding scale let's say, we have moved the slide 1" on a 10' wisdom measuring apparatus! I am just saying we can't comprehend at this moment in time! Will we evolve enough to one day to have all the answers that are being asked in these types of discussions, possibly only at deaths front door! Link to comment
Landlord Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 God chose to do all of those things, thus setting the stage for millions of generations of sin and suffering, and for literally billions upon billions of people to fall utterly away from eternal life in heaven. God created that whole scenario, and the fact is he never had to. this always stuck me odd in regards to jesus' sacrifice. he sacrificed his life for all of humanity. who would not do that? and he got to go to heaven and sit at the right side of his father, god. that just does not really seem like a sacrifice or necessary. just my imo. Well there's the whole tortured murdered and also supernaturally bearing the entirety of God's wrath bit... Link to comment
Recommended Posts