Do you believe in God? A deity, or higher power?

[Ulty]

Knapp's posts explains things very well in this thread.

 

 

I grew up Christian, but not necessarily strict or devout. I became a stronger believer in my teenage years on my own, why I did so I can’t quite remember. But then after reading the Bible and studying various religions, things started to not make sense. Most religious beliefs are irrational and illogical.

 

 

For several years, through college and in my early 20s, I considered myself agnostic. Despite my doubts and desire to base beliefs and knowledge on actual evidence, there was no way to know for sure about some things, including the existence of God. That is essentially what agnosticism comes down to for me; there is no way to really no, and it is futile to try.

 

 

But the reality is, I’m not agnostic, I’m atheist. Agnostic is more of a comfortable place, as atheism seems like a more definitive and stubborn answer.

 

 

I base my atheism on the irrationality of it all. It honestly seems silly to think believe in supernatural stuff. The concept of God does not make sense, as knapp’s story illustrated, plus there are so many different gods in different religions that the concept itself is all over the place. Why did the Greeks and Romans believe in their Gods once upon a time, but we only look at them as literary fairy tales now? Why do we teach our kids about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny at the same time that we teach them about God or Jesus, but we later only reveal some of those characters as not being real? What’s the difference?

 

 

Why do we believe that Jesus is the supernatural son of God, but nothing actually caught on about him for many years after his death? Why was his birthday celebration changed by the church just for the sake of convenience? What other parts of the story are made up just for the convenience of the church? I believe Jesus was a real person in history that probably had some very good things to teach people and pissed off the wrong person, but then again, why is there no definitive historical data on him? Hell, Mohammed and the Buddha were actual documented people in history, but Jesus is more nebulous, even as a man, let alone something supernatural.

 

 

Now, religion and spirituality serve many functions in society and provide many positive values. But I think that psychologically, religious beliefs indicate a lower level of thinking that needs some sort of authority or explanation handed to you as opposed to figuring things out based on evidence and rational thought. I also think religion is a form of social control that vastly limits much of society.

 

 

I hate to say this stuff, because so many friends and family are devoutly religious, but to me it’s all nonsense. But since you asked…

 

[QMany]

I do not believe in God.

 

I will be blunt here, I think religion is a way for people to cope with the harsh realities of life and death. We want to believe in some higher power, we want to believe in eternal life, because it is scary to think otherwise.

 

I don't mean to offend anyone with these opinions. I was born and raised Catholic, but I chose my beliefs when I got older and my parents no longer forced me to go to church, CCD, etc.

[JJ Husker]

What I believe can be pretty well be summed up with the words of the Nicene Creed.

 

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come.

I actually, really, believe all of that. The only part of that I struggle with at all is the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic church" I think there are numerous other ways to know and interact with God and the way I choose to do it, although it is right for me, cannot be the only way.

 

I grew up Lutheran and converted to Catholicism about 20 years ago around age 30. I have really attempted to keep an open mind and have honestly tried to have people convince me I am goofy. I have yet to run across that silver bullet that puts a hole in the heart of my faith and belief. I believe strongly that there is another realm that we, quite frankly, are ill equipped to understand and that science cannot begin to explain. I have seen nothing from science that cannot go hand in hand with what I believe. I have had a couple anecdotal experiences that I will never believe were anything less than supernatural occurrences. I realize that much of what I believe in cannot be proven or exhibited to anyone. But, I also realize that the word "faith" came about for a reason. There are just some things that faith is as good as it gets and a person either has that faith or they don't.

[Ratt Mhule]

The Nicene Creed is actually one of the main things that turned me off about being Catholic. One day I just realized, what am I even saying? Not necessarily the fact that I didn't believe it when you actually break it down, but the fact is, a lot of the people there just do it because its tradition and don't actually think about what they are actually saying. The whole congregation is like a bunch of robots. Every Sunday saying the same things because we are programmed to do it. And then they changed it a few years back which I still don't understand. Consubstantial? What does that even mean...

 

Too many rituals and too much hypocrisy. The Pope (not necessarily talking about Pope Francis. I like him.) does not need to take a sh#t on a gold platted toilet seat. Give the billions of dollars you have sitting in the Vatican Bank to people that actually need it.

[JJ Husker]

The Nicene Creed is actually one of the main things that turned me off about being Catholic. One day I just realized, what am I even saying? This whole congregation is like a bunch of robots. Every Sunday saying the same things because we are programmed to do it. and then they changed it a few years back which I still don't understand. Consubstantial? What does that even mean...

 

Too many rituals and too much hypocrisy. The Pope (not necessarily talking about Pope Francis. I like him.) does not need to take a sh#t on a gold platted toilet seat. Give the billions of dollars you have sitting in the Vatican Bank to people that actually need it.

I can sympathize with a lot of that Po. My "faith" in the church and organized religion is a much different animal than what I believe. Organized religion is composed of people and people can be the source of myriad problems. And I understand how much of the weekly recitation comes of as insincere and going through the motions. That is one of the (many) things I do not like about the Catholic church. I actually try to contemplate the words of the creed, and what they mean, every time I say it. It would be easy, and meaningless, to just sleepwalk through it.

 

Consubstantial- I think it sort of means the same as or substantially the same as. I like the way they changed the wording of it.

[TAKODA]

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

 

LOL, JJ, that is really weird because that very sentence is the one part I will not say in church either.

 

I asked the father about this and he stated it was not based on one church but the belief that the teachings that came from the Roman Catholic background. I reviewed data on this and although his comments were not in depth, they were not 100% correct, thus to this day, I say the creed without saying that portion.

 

This below, best represents the meaning behind that statement: IMO

 

There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. One describes the unity of the body of Christ. These words from the Creed speak of the followers of Jesus Christ as united in their belief in one God, one Lord, Jesus Christ. The Church is one because as the Church's members we are joined together by Jesus. He prays for Christians to have unity, saying this unity will provide the most compelling evidence to the world that he is the Savior of the world.

 

OK, guys, let r rip with your debunking if you feel the need!

[Husker_x]

1. No. Although looking at the vast (and that's not quite saying it) universe out there, it does raise a question or two about what it is, why it is, and how much we'll ever know about it.

 

2. None of those options is very appealing. There's absolutely no reason at all to think Jesus was a deity. It's not much easier to say he was a good teacher because what remains of his teachings are decades-if-not-centuries younger copies of copies of stories written about him. I think it is likely Jesus existed, but it is impossible to know with any degree of certainty what he was like, or if the legends told about him really captured the guy or not.

 

3. At risk of dragging more annoying and unwanted ideas from another thread, probably the religion that I share a kinship with most is Buddhism. I'm not a Buddhist for many of the same reasons I'm not a theist: there's just no evidence for its claims of reincarnation or cosmology, and most of the same problems that apply to the teachings of Jesus apply to the Buddha. There is an honest debate to be had on whether Buddhism is even a religion. Most attempts to compare it to the monotheistic faiths we see in the West fall flat. To me, despite the same temples and trappings, it functions more like a philosophy, if for no other reason than central to the teaching are things like the transience of all phenomena, the mind itself as a subject of investigation, and virtues being taught in relation to their outcomes of happiness and suffering (interdependence), not pleasing an invisible person out of hope for reward or fear of punishment.

 

It's difficult to talk about because 1) a lot of people don't know a lot about it in the West, and 2) it's difficult. There's some circular reasoning for you. But I love the story of the Buddha. In brief, it is a legend about a wealthy young man who grows up isolated from the world. One day, he leaves his life of luxury and stumbles on Old Age, Disease, and Death, all for the first time, and he is shocked. He sees these things as the fundamental realities of life; everything else is just a distraction from this inevitability. Even our accomplishments which theoretically are supposed to live on after us will perish. The question then becomes: since these things are inevitable, how do we humans make it all okay? The rest of the story is his search for the answer. It is obviously a myth, but it doesn't really matter. I think the story of the Buddha nails the central question of life, a question we all share in common.

[sd'sker]

i would say i am dionysian, because i drink a lot and am self-destructive.

 

also, a lot of great ideas here. this has been a cool thread. really enjoyed knapp's take and saw a lot of people with similar views as mine. and i am always excited when i see husker_x post.

 

jj, you're alright.

[strigori]

I am an atheist.

 

I was raised as a Lutheran. We went to church most Sundays, including Sunday school. I attended the Wednesday classes throughout most of my school years and the 'conformation' classes. I believed simply because that was what I had been indoctrinated with from basically birth.

 

In my early 20's I really started asking questions to myself. And as I was working an overnight shift where I was largely alone for eight hours a day, I had a lot of time to think, and really go to uncomfortable, challenging places in my head. I could not reconcile the conflicting stories and messages. Or the circular logic. The Bible is the only truth, because the Bible says it is the only truth. There were many ways that my religious upbringing had shaped the way I looked at the world and myself, was damaging my life, and the very way I looked at myself. I became much happier with my life after I changed my views.

 

One major conclusion I came to is that the God depicted in the Bible is a monster. Drowning civilization (which science and archaeology does not support) turning people into salt, and demanding unwavering faith under penalty of death or eternal damnation. Yet he's supposed to 'love' humanity. But similar to Knapplc, I could not fathom treating those I loved with the callousness that God would. The infallible, omnipotent being with a 'plan' that somehow includes things like rape and murder of children did not make sense to me. Also yielding that if there is a predestined plan in place from the beginning of existence, first there could not be good or evil, as no one really had a choice in their actions. And second, which kind of twisted monster would come up with as sadistic a plan as what humanity has gone through. And third, why would this all powerful being get upset about the things it had set in motion in the first place?

 

My views on religion now are that it is a hold over from an era where people did not know how things worked, and where the dark was still very scary. It gives a fall back, catch all answer to people when they do not know the answer, or the simple chaos of existence causes them pain. If someone were to sit down and tell you the stories in the Bible, and that they happened recently, you would think they were insane. And would look to find the trick behind the 'miracles' and what the end goal was behind the fiction being spun. But because it was written down in an old book, from an era where books themselves boarder-lined on mystical to many people, it gets taken as unquestioned truth.

 

Did Jesus exist? To some extent I'm sure. I homeless guy who survived off of others, while preaching a philosophy I can buy. And some parts of what is preached to have some value. Love thy neighbor, rage against greed, care for the sick. I can get behind those messages (even if they are alien concepts to modern 'Christians') But being the manifestation of a deity? Nope.

[JJ Husker]

The Nicene Creed is actually one of the main things that turned me off about being Catholic. One day I just realized, what am I even saying? Not necessarily the fact that I didn't believe it when you actually break it down,

 

I am surprised to hear this from you Po. If you don't mind answering, what content in the creed do you not believe? That doesn't just shoot down Catholicism but also most of Christianity.

[killer cacti]

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

 

LOL, JJ, that is really weird because that very sentence is the one part I will not say in church either.

 

I asked the father about this and he stated it was not based on one church but the belief that the teachings that came from the Roman Catholic background. I reviewed data on this and although his comments were not in depth, they were not 100% correct, thus to this day, I say the creed without saying that portion.

 

Note that the words catholic and apostolic are not capitalized. This means that it's not about the Catholic (denomination) but rather the true definitions of the words:

 

 

catholic:

universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.

 

apostolic:

of or characteristic of an apostle.

 

This is what I was taught as it was a question brought up in confirmation class.

[Ratt Mhule]

 

The Nicene Creed is actually one of the main things that turned me off about being Catholic. One day I just realized, what am I even saying? Not necessarily the fact that I didn't believe it when you actually break it down,

I am surprised to hear this from you Po. If you don't mind answering, what content in the creed do you not believe? That doesn't just shoot down Catholicism but also most of Christianity.

 

 

No, what I am saying is, it wasn't the fact that I didn't believe the words that I spoke from the creed when I attended church. It was just like you said in your last post, the catholic church is a lot of rituals and traditions and it gets to the point where people just say it because everyone else does every Sunday and don't really mean it. My parents/siblings even admitted to this when I asked them if they even comprehend what they are saying.

 

But like I said in my first post of the thread, I would consider myself a believer in a creator of the universe (God). I don't know if its the Christian God or not. Ive been turned off to religion the last few years. Maybe Ill find my way back, but who knows.

[tschu]

I feel like this sudden rash of religion threads is my fault

 

i apologize

[walksalone]

Used to. Not sure what I believe now. I left a great deal of my faith on the streets of Fallujah.

 

I know what you mean, and thank you for serving...

[WoodyHayes1951]

The Nicene Creed is actually one of the main things that turned me off about being Catholic. One day I just realized, what am I even saying? Not necessarily the fact that I didn't believe it when you actually break it down, but the fact is, a lot of the people there just do it because its tradition and don't actually think about what they are actually saying. The whole congregation is like a bunch of robots. Every Sunday saying the same things because we are programmed to do it. And then they changed it a few years back which I still don't understand. Consubstantial? What does that even mean...

 

Too many rituals and too much hypocrisy. The Pope (not necessarily talking about Pope Francis. I like him.) does not need to take a sh#t on a gold platted toilet seat. Give the billions of dollars you have sitting in the Vatican Bank to people that actually need it.

 

 

They didn't "change" it. It was incorrectly translated back in the 60's and they finally got around to fixing it.

 

The Vatican Wealth is a myth. There is a lot of wealth but it is not LIQUID. It is in a lot of buildings, paintings, sculptures,etc(And I have been following and been very critical of several higher ups in their situation). Liquidity is not one of the problems.

 

As far as the Creed and the people who just robotically say it.....Is that the fault of the creed or the individual?