Do you believe in God? A deity, or higher power?

[BigRedBuster]

I believe in a creator of the universe (one God). Not sure about the Christian God as I cant worship a God who has killed so many people. I also believe religion(s) are man-made to make themselves feel better about their life. I can't take responsibility for my own downfalls, so I am going to persecute others (gays, Jews, Muslims, etc.) to make myself feel like a better person. Not something I can get behind. Yes, Ive bullied and put people down before, but not in the name of God. Because I was a douche when I was younger.

 

Plus too many things in the bible have been proven to be wrong. No way people lived to be thousands of years old...sorry.

I'm interested in knowing how many people the Christian God has killed.

[Ratt Mhule]

 

I believe in a creator of the universe (one God). Not sure about the Christian God as I cant worship a God who has killed so many people. I also believe religion(s) are man-made to make themselves feel better about their life. I can't take responsibility for my own downfalls, so I am going to persecute others (gays, Jews, Muslims, etc.) to make myself feel like a better person. Not something I can get behind. Yes, Ive bullied and put people down before, but not in the name of God. Because I was a douche when I was younger.

 

Plus too many things in the bible have been proven to be wrong. No way people lived to be thousands of years old...sorry.

I'm interested in knowing how many people the Christian God has killed.

 

 

Well, everyone living on Earth except Noah and his family for one...

[Excel]

I was raised as a Lutheran and grew up believing in a christian God and all that comes with him.

 

Then I started reading about the history of religion - both Christianity and religious belief in general - took a few courses in comparitive religious studies, got out of my box a little bit and read a few sites on the internet, rationalwiki being the biggest one, and started to really assess my beliefs. Today I would probably describe myself as a Deist because I believe that there is a creator but certainly not an involved or benevolent one. I have experienced nothing in my life that would lead me to believe that the creator is currently active or cares at all about me, you or anyone.

 

My clinging to a belief in a creator is probably a bit out of nostalgia and also because there are two gaps that I can't explain (origin of life & origin of the universe), I know that religion and science have their own competing answers or theories for those things but I remain undecided.

 

My views on Jesus are pretty similar to Thomas Jefferson's. I think he existed, I think he was a great teacher and a wise man who lived a life worthy of some emulation but I do not believe that he performed miracles, was divine or is worthy of worship. Study? Definitely. Worship? No.

[WoodyHayes1951]

I was raised as a Lutheran and grew up believing in a christian God and all that comes with him.

 

Then I started reading about the history of religion - both Christianity and religious belief in general - took a few courses in comparitive religious studies, got out of my box a little bit and read a few sites on the internet, rationalwiki being the biggest one, and started to really assess my beliefs. Today I would probably describe myself as a Deist because I believe that there is a creator but certainly not an involved or benevolent one. I have experienced nothing in my life to believe that the creator is currently active or cares at all about me, you or anyone.

 

My clinging to a belief in a creator is probably a bit out of nostalgia and also because there are two gaps that I can't explain (origin of life & origin of the universe), I know that religion and science have their own competing answers or theories for those things but I remain undecided.

 

My views on Jesus are pretty similar to Thomas Jefferson's. I think he existed, I think he was a great teacher and a wise man who lived a life worthy of some emulation but I do not believe that he performed miracles, was divine or is worthy of worship. Study? Definitely. Worship? No.

 

 

 

How was He a great teacher and a wise man?

 

Either he was the Son of God or he was a lunatic who claimed to be the Son of God.....no middle ground.....

 

 

Which is why people like Thomas Jefferson can't have it both ways. Why would someone crucify Mister Rogers? They wouldn't.

[Excel]

 

I used to believe in God (the Christian God) for a long time. I doubted for a long time, and finally I stopped ignoring those doubts in a knee-jerk fashion and explored them - really explored what I believed and why. It became clear that the reason I was Christian was that my parents were Christian, I was taken to Christian church my whole life, and I'd never had any real experiences with any other religions. I had never spent a year in a mosque, or a temple, or giving any other religion more than a cursory glance (reading their texts, talking to a few believers, etc).

 

When I stopped simply believing what I was told and truly thought about these stories, I couldn't believe them anymore. Funny thing - the clincher was a two-year cover-to-cover study of the Bible. I'd read this or that book, chapters and verses galore, but never the whole thing in an exhaustive study. Once I did, it was over for me.

 

 

 

I've talked about the House & the Shed analogy before here. My epiphany came to me as I stood on my deck, looking at my shed. It was dirty and needed to be cleaned out, mostly from mouse debris but I had some spilt bags of sand, tons of dirt, the usual stuff. It was a nasty, smelly mess. So bad that I never wanted to go in there.

 

As I stood there looking at that stupid shed, it occurred to me that I wouldn't even let a child of mine go in there in that condition. And then it dawned on me that the Bible story, as we're told it, teaches that God, who has the power to do anything, makes me live in that shed. He could very easily pull me out of it, give me a room in the house and let me live there instead of living in squalor, but he doesn't.

 

If I wouldn't let my own children go into that shed, why would the all-powerful God of the Universe let his? I decided to stop ignoring my doubts right there. It was clearly a story made up by the church to control people. No actual factual God as described in the Bible would allow children he loves to suffer this way.

 

The stories the Bible tells us, the stories the church tells us, are very clearly made up after the fact to explain what already is, to try and put some kind of explanation on things. There are 1,000 reasons why this would happen - control, power, influence, all the basic human character flaws, ignorance, fear of the reality of life, bap bap bap. The list is as long as man's journey through time.

 

The process took years. I was taught that God was real and that the Bible was true, I even taught that myself as a church leader. But it's clear to me that it's not true, and I feel much happier now, like a weight has lifted off my shoulders.

Ok Knapp,

 

Here is a question that has always perplexed me. Since it is so clear to you that these stories are made up etc.

 

Why do devout Athiests convert to a belief in God after exploring scientific explanation of things etc.

 

Clearly there are conversions that go both ways. Why? (Please excuse any perceived "negative" tone, it was just a question)

 

 

Not to be a jerk or anything but I don't think "devout" and "atheist" go together all that well.

[Landlord]

Plus too many things in the bible have been proven to be wrong. No way people lived to be hundreds of years old...sorry.

 

 

Without knowing what specifically you are referring to, I would guess that all of those things have only been 'proven' wrong when looked at with one specific interpretation.

 

 

The hundreds of years old people, for instance. It's possible that Scripture was referring to individual human beings living in some rich pre-flood atmosphere before the total corruption of sin or something like that, but it's also possible, and also (unlike western culture) precedented and common, that genealogy lines in the ancient East often skipped gaps and weren't necessarily referring to sequential parent/child relationships.

[Ratt Mhule]

What about the bible saying the Earth is flat? Earth only being thousands of years old? No mention of dinosaurs ever existing? Stuff like that is what I meant.

[GM_Tood]

Roman Catholic.

[Landlord]

What about the bible saying the Earth is flat? Earth only being thousands of years old? No mention of dinosaurs ever existing? Stuff like that is what I meant.

 

 

You're going to have to be more specific about what and where these claims actually are because as far as my knowledge of scripture goes the Bible doesn't say any of those things.

[killer cacti]

I've talked about the House & the Shed analogy before here. My epiphany came to me as I stood on my deck, looking at my shed. It was dirty and needed to be cleaned out, mostly from mouse debris but I had some spilt bags of sand, tons of dirt, the usual stuff. It was a nasty, smelly mess. So bad that I never wanted to go in there.

 

As I stood there looking at that stupid shed, it occurred to me that I wouldn't even let a child of mine go in there in that condition. And then it dawned on me that the Bible story, as we're told it, teaches that God, who has the power to do anything, makes me live in that shed. He could very easily pull me out of it, give me a room in the house and let me live there instead of living in squalor, but he doesn't.

 

If I wouldn't let my own children go into that shed, why would the all-powerful God of the Universe let his? I decided to stop ignoring my doubts right there. It was clearly a story made up by the church to control people. No actual factual God as described in the Bible would allow children he loves to suffer this way.

 

 

I'm confused by this. How does a shed that you've neglected relate in any way to religion?

[knapplc]

C'mon, KC. You know exactly what I'm talking about here.

 

Shed = Earth

 

House = Heaven

[killer cacti]

C'mon, KC. You know exactly what I'm talking about here.

 

Shed = Earth

 

House = Heaven

Lol. Sorry man. I see what you're saying now. Not good with metaphors.

[knapplc]

The shed is a great analogy, too.

 

Basically, if God is omnipotent, then my sin can be cast away at any time and I can go to Heaven to be with him, stop suffering in this imperfect human life, and just get on with my living forever in great glory and happiness.

 

If God cannot do this, he is not omnipotent.

 

If God chooses not to do this, he is not all-loving.

 

If God intentionally makes me suffer for someone else's sin, he is not sinless.

 

 

 

There is no way a "perfect" god should be a worse father than I am.

[The Dude]

 

I believe in a creator of the universe (one God). Not sure about the Christian God as I cant worship a God who has killed so many people. I also believe religion(s) are man-made to make themselves feel better about their life. I can't take responsibility for my own downfalls, so I am going to persecute others (gays, Jews, Muslims, etc.) to make myself feel like a better person. Not something I can get behind. Yes, Ive bullied and put people down before, but not in the name of God. Because I was a douche when I was younger.

 

Plus too many things in the bible have been proven to be wrong. No way people lived to be thousands of years old...sorry.

I'm interested in knowing how many people the Christian God has killed.

 

In reality? Zero.

 

In the ancient story book, I dunno, tens of millions?

[icedavis]

Christianity sells "eternal life" in Heaven as a way past that scary blank wall. It's a security blanket, only nobody has ever seen it, reported on it, confirmed it, or proven beyond doubt that it exists. In the absence of any proof whatsoever, it's pretty easy to believe that it's just a made-up story to assuage our human fears.

 

At the risk of sounding confrontational even though its not the intent:

 

It could be a security blanket, sure. But just because no one has scientifically verified the existence of heaven (despite the many claims of appearances by Jesus, Mary, or white lights, that Heaven is for Real book, etc) doesn't mean heaven doesn't exist. Of course, that doesn't automatically mean it does exist as well. There are plenty of scientific studies out there trying to verify/explain many 'earthly' claims, dark matter, string theory, why in the world fibonacci sequences and phyllotaxis are so awesome and work like they do...okay maybe that last one is just me... and plenty of other, lesser unexplainable things like aliens/UFOs, bigfoot and HAARP out there currently and I think we all can agree the fundamental difference is "belief". What do you believe.

 

Science has plenty of provenance and we therefore believe that they are true. The Bible is said to have plenty of provenance as well yet is not as widely believed, the book Case for Christ provides a pretty good outline from my limited experience reading up on the topic. It's clear that you specifically Knapp have done some thought and research from both sides, weighed your options and like many people chosen, pretty steadfastly (as we have seen in these various religion based threads) that you can't believe the things the bible says. The problem (okay not really a problem per se, for lack of a better word at the moment) with that is that there is no more proof that it (God/heaven) doesn't exist than proof that does. It all comes down to who believes either side more that is the determining factor.

 

From what I see in many arguments against (not all arguments, obviously) is that people want proof. They want to see it with their eyes. A recurring theme in the Bible is just that, people want visible proof and while the message is trust and belief, God still provides evidence. Where the disconnect occurs is that we as humans have a hard time believing these acts could actually happen for various reasons (say in the physical or logical sense) because of the time gap and and such but if you live in the world of God, we as humans can't possibly know everything that God does, so we must believe/trust what He says. It's on a similar but much greater level to us trusting what our parents told us growing up, we didn't and couldn't know any better but we pretty much blindly trusted/believed them until we were able to truly find out on our own. In this case, the only way we can truly find out on our own is when we die and until that time we only have the choice of belief.

 

Now I can't say that I am an expert on why or why not but I do try to remain open and listen to each side while still maintaining my belief. When i find contrary, I do the work to research and come to a logical conclusion that makes sense to me. I can't nearly say that what I have written above will make any sense or be nearly as eloquently written as say Landlord and others have shown that they are well versed. I may very well be very off base on my perspective, which just then means I have more work to do in understanding.

 

Lastly: