Who wins 2016 Presidency?

[carlfense]

 

 

Interestingly, what made Reagan a good President was that he came into office in a time very similar to today. Americans had been beat to a pulp and nobody had a good feeling about anything. Politically, Washington was split similar to now.

 

What he brought was the ability to bring the nation together and make people feel good about themselves and the nation. He was then able to actually work with Tip O'neill and accomplish things. He was able to show people that Washington can work again even though the other party controlled congress.

Washington was not even remotely as polarized in 1980 as they are today. The affront of a Black president has shaken a significant segment of our population to their very core, so much so that they're willing to abandon reason entirely and be taken off on ridiculous irrelevant tangents (birth certificates, secret Muslim, etc). I have seen this not only in the media, but in personal conversations with friends & (most sadly) family. There were differences in 1980. There are outright schisms today.

 

The good things about Reagan are that he made the nation feel good about themselves again. He was charismatic and a fantastic figurehead. I didn't really know any Democrats back then, but near as I recollect, while he wasn't "their guy" necessarily, they respected him. They even voted for him (although neither Carter nor Mondale were very palatable options, but still).

 

The other main thing about Reagan was the bold in your quote above. Reagan was tough as nails, but he was willing to work with Tip - but the crucial flip side to that is, Tip was willing to work with Reagan. While they had different ideologies, neither was willing to burn the country to the ground rather than compromise with the other. The cooperation was mutual, not forced by Reagan nor by Tip O'Neill.

 

Today, Obama doesn't have that willingness on the flip side. In fact, he's had exactly the opposite, and it's shown in the half-disaster this country has become in the last six years. The complete unwillingness to in any way work with this president has put a huge, unnecessary strain on this country. The economy isn't nearly as healthy as it could be, jobs aren't where they should be, incomes are down, cynicism is sky-high, and we're more divided now than we were when Obama was elected the first time.

 

The Cantor upset is a HUGE red flag that things aren't going the way they should for the Republicans. This is the presumptive Speaker of the House being defeated by a political nobody. If that doesn't slap the Republicans upside the head and make them rethink this obstructionist agenda, nothing will.

 

I disagree, you put all the unwillingness to work together on the GOP. It is a two way street. Obama is as unbending as any in the GOP.

 

The Dems were the same way when GWB was president.

 

It not working because both parties are unwilling to work and compromise together.

 

More evidence. Thanks.

 

Cynical? Sure. Depressing? You bet. Prescient? You'd better believe it.

[TGHusker]

 

Reasonable post Knapp - there are many today who say there isn't much diff from Dem and Rep today and that may be true at the center of each party - but the extreme left and extreme right are further apart than ever - it is the extremes of those parties that are battling. I believe the Dems have moved more to the left as a whole and the repubs more to the right and it is tearing us apart. Think back to Reagan years - the extremes were much closer and the center much bigger. The repubs were known as the loyal opposition (as they were typically the minority party before Reagan). Even though I voted for Reagan, there were many Dems that I really respected in the 70s to the early 90s- (My 1st vote was for George McGovern's Senate reelection and I did a large history project on HHH ) There isn't much respect anymore in politics. Reagan and Tip were on opposite sides but they made it work. Newt and Bill were on opposite sides - they end up making it work also - there was more pragmatism, compromise that allowed the country to move forward. And yes, to ward off criticism, I can show more respect towards Obama - I acknowledge my disrespect -I need to do a better job of taking issue with the policy and not the person trying to do a job on behalf of the country.

 

 

 

You may believe that, but there's really not evidence to support the claim.

 

Well we can look at it two ways - (1)the Dems were always very liberal but we didn't see it as it was more 'normative' then (the Great Society programs, Abortion stance, other social programs may support this view). And the loyal opposition was more about getting along than proposing change/challenge to big gov't spending.

(2)Or we can say the Dems were more moderate back then - Think foreign policy - I think there were more 'hawks' in the dem party back then, On social programs, they weren't pushing Obama Care type programs (until Bill and Hill tried in the 90s), gay rights, etc.

[carlfense]

On social programs, they weren't pushing Obama Care type programs (until Bill and Hill tried in the 90s). . .

 

Other than . . . you know . . . Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.

 

Not to mention that the ACA is essentially right wing compared to those programs.

[TGHusker]

 

On social programs, they weren't pushing Obama Care type programs (until Bill and Hill tried in the 90s). . .

 

Other than . . . you know . . . Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.

 

Not to mention that the ACA is essentially right wing compared to those programs.

 

Point taken - Ok more moderate on foreign policy alone. The Medicare, etc fall under the social programs of the Great Society - No 1 point in my previous post

[carlfense]

Point taken - Ok more moderate on foreign policy alone.

More hawkish (pre-Iraq lies, Afghanistan debacle) = more moderate to you?

[strigori]

 

 

Reasonable post Knapp - there are many today who say there isn't much diff from Dem and Rep today and that may be true at the center of each party - but the extreme left and extreme right are further apart than ever - it is the extremes of those parties that are battling. I believe the Dems have moved more to the left as a whole and the repubs more to the right and it is tearing us apart. Think back to Reagan years - the extremes were much closer and the center much bigger. The repubs were known as the loyal opposition (as they were typically the minority party before Reagan). Even though I voted for Reagan, there were many Dems that I really respected in the 70s to the early 90s- (My 1st vote was for George McGovern's Senate reelection and I did a large history project on HHH ) There isn't much respect anymore in politics. Reagan and Tip were on opposite sides but they made it work. Newt and Bill were on opposite sides - they end up making it work also - there was more pragmatism, compromise that allowed the country to move forward. And yes, to ward off criticism, I can show more respect towards Obama - I acknowledge my disrespect -I need to do a better job of taking issue with the policy and not the person trying to do a job on behalf of the country.

 

 

 

You may believe that, but there's really not evidence to support the claim.

 

Well we can look at it two ways - (1)the Dems were always very liberal but we didn't see it as it was more 'normative' then (the Great Society programs, Abortion stance, other social programs may support this view). And the loyal opposition was more about getting along than proposing change/challenge to big gov't spending.

(2)Or we can say the Dems were more moderate back then - Think foreign policy - I think there were more 'hawks' in the dem party back then, On social programs, they weren't pushing Obama Care type programs (until Bill and Hill tried in the 90s), gay rights, etc.

 

The only real issues that the Dems have moved on since the 80's are gay's, less hardlined to religion, and less pro military as the Cold War is over. And the first two are a societal shift, not a 'far left' anything. The majority of Americans support gay marriage, are dramatically less likely to go to church, and want our soldiers to be done with wars.

 

The only reason the right is claiming the Dems have gone way left, is they themselves have gone so far to the right, they can't see the center anymore.

[Hooked on Huskers]

Hillary will be the next Pres barring some really freaky sh#t coming out, hell that won't even matter, that's how bad the repub options are. On the plus side, I think she might be a step up from the current condition. The last thing we can do is expect excellence in the WH- that ain't gonna happen no matter what.

 

Oh god no !

 

Picture Adam and Eve ...... serpent tricks Eve into eating fruit from the forbidden tree. Damn women . Plus she was a life-long lawyer+politician .... scum of the earth.

 

I like no big ego personality and nonpartisan guy. See "Dave" movie starring Kevin Kline.

[JJ Husker]

I won't try to make the argument that things are anywhere close to the same now as they were when Reagan took over from Carter. Sure there were differences of opinion and policy but nothing like when Obama was elected. It is shortsighted and easy to try to place all the blame on the obstructionist repubs Obama has experienced but, that doesn't really tell the story of where and how the schism all began. As I recall, things started getting especially contentious when Gore lost to W in 2000, and then escalated to bizarro land when Kerry lost to W in 2004. That pretty much sent the dem party over the edge IMO. We can all blame this and blame that based on our own political preferences but really the repubs reaction to Obama getting elected was simply an extension, a one upping, of the attitude the dems had already begun through the back to back disappointments of Gore & Kerry. I'm not saying this alleviates any of what the obstructionist repubs have done but, I am saying it was basically inevitable and just part of a perfect political storm. If anyone thinks that it would be any different with a dem congress and a repub in the WH, I think you're screwy. Our system is broke and it ain't going to work itself out anytime soon. The only thing that will set it on the right track now is some good old fashioned revolution and rebellion in the streets. However, I believe our people are too apathetic to begin that process before it is way too late. The fuse has been lit and it is just a matter of time until it burns it's way to the powder keg. The timing just depends on how tolerant we are of the bullsh#t going on in DC. Radical changes are needed.

[StPaulHusker]

I hear Eric Cantor isn't doing anything these days. Maybe he should throw his hat in the ring...

[strigori]

It goes back just a little farther into the Clinton years really. I mean we had impeachment proceedings over oral sex. And most of the gridlock you can tie right into Newt Gingrich led Contract With America, where the GOP effectively merged itself with Christian conservatives, injecting the fanaticism and fervor into politics that was not that heavily represented at the time. The GOP lost its statesmen, and they were replaced by ideologues. Bush V Gore only added fuel to the fire. I really don't think the Dems were ever that upset over Kerry.

[StPaulHusker]

It goes back just a little farther into the Clinton years really. I mean we had impeachment proceedings over oral sex. And most of the gridlock you can tie right into Newt Gingrich led Contract With America, where the GOP effectively merged itself with Christian conservatives, injecting the fanaticism and fervor into politics that was not that heavily represented at the time. The GOP lost its statesmen, and they were replaced by ideologues. Bush V Gore only added fuel to the fire. I really don't think the Dems were ever that upset over Kerry.

It wasn't impeachment over oral sex. It was impeachment over perjury and obstruction of justice.

[carlfense]

 

It goes back just a little farther into the Clinton years really. I mean we had impeachment proceedings over oral sex. And most of the gridlock you can tie right into Newt Gingrich led Contract With America, where the GOP effectively merged itself with Christian conservatives, injecting the fanaticism and fervor into politics that was not that heavily represented at the time. The GOP lost its statesmen, and they were replaced by ideologues. Bush V Gore only added fuel to the fire. I really don't think the Dems were ever that upset over Kerry.

It wasn't impeachment over oral sex. It was impeachment over perjury and obstruction of justice.

 

. . . regarding oral sex.

 

Ultimately, it was impeachment for the sake of impeachment.

[StPaulHusker]

 

 

It goes back just a little farther into the Clinton years really. I mean we had impeachment proceedings over oral sex. And most of the gridlock you can tie right into Newt Gingrich led Contract With America, where the GOP effectively merged itself with Christian conservatives, injecting the fanaticism and fervor into politics that was not that heavily represented at the time. The GOP lost its statesmen, and they were replaced by ideologues. Bush V Gore only added fuel to the fire. I really don't think the Dems were ever that upset over Kerry.

It wasn't impeachment over oral sex. It was impeachment over perjury and obstruction of justice.

 

. . . regarding oral sex.

 

Ultimately, it was impeachment for the sake of impeachment.

 

Correct on both counts. I wasn't sure if strigori thought he was impeached for actually getting a hummer instead of first lying about it.

[Junior]

I won't try to make the argument that things are anywhere close to the same now as they were when Reagan took over from Carter. Sure there were differences of opinion and policy but nothing like when Obama was elected. It is shortsighted and easy to try to place all the blame on the obstructionist repubs Obama has experienced but, that doesn't really tell the story of where and how the schism all began. As I recall, things started getting especially contentious when Gore lost to W in 2000, and then escalated to bizarro land when Kerry lost to W in 2004. That pretty much sent the dem party over the edge IMO. We can all blame this and blame that based on our own political preferences but really the repubs reaction to Obama getting elected was simply an extension, a one upping, of the attitude the dems had already begun through the back to back disappointments of Gore & Kerry. I'm not saying this alleviates any of what the obstructionist repubs have done but, I am saying it was basically inevitable and just part of a perfect political storm. If anyone thinks that it would be any different with a dem congress and a repub in the WH, I think you're screwy. Our system is broke and it ain't going to work itself out anytime soon. The only thing that will set it on the right track now is some good old fashioned revolution and rebellion in the streets. However, I believe our people are too apathetic to begin that process before it is way too late. The fuse has been lit and it is just a matter of time until it burns it's way to the powder keg. The timing just depends on how tolerant we are of the bullsh#t going on in DC. Radical changes are needed.

 

 

There's a whole lot of revisionist history going on there.

[JJ Husker]

It goes back just a little farther into the Clinton years really. I mean we had impeachment proceedings over oral sex. And most of the gridlock you can tie right into Newt Gingrich led Contract With America, where the GOP effectively merged itself with Christian conservatives, injecting the fanaticism and fervor into politics that was not that heavily represented at the time. The GOP lost its statesmen, and they were replaced by ideologues. Bush V Gore only added fuel to the fire. I really don't think the Dems were ever that upset over Kerry.

I would agree that the beginnings of the problem go back further as you describe but, the Dems were absolutely furious when they failed to unseat W. Sure Kerry himself was not much to get bent out of shape over but the mere fact that they would be stuck with Bush for another 4, THAT was too much for them to collectively bear. These current day republicans have taken it into the stratosphere but there is no forgetting the hysterics of the Dem party circa 2004.