Israeli military gets revenge.

[strigori]

 

The UN is losing all credibility. And the antisemitic lean of many parts of the world is showing. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization, making giving or selling weapons to them a crime. So, somehow the logic translates to by not giving them a very highly advanced weapon system, that is a problem. The UN complaint lists the US at fault also as we helped Israel develop the Iron Dome, and didn't offer the same funding to Hamas.

 

Ha ha! That's an absurd position by the UN. The Iron Dome is a defensive system. It intercepts and destroys the short-range Hamas rockets. How could anyone have a problem with that mission? The only problem I have with the Iron Dome is that the U.S. funded a great portion of it. My criticism of Israel is not with the Iron Dome. It's that they fire mortars and missiles into civilian areas of Palestine. They don't mind killing a dozen innocent people if they have a good chance of killing a Hamas terrorist. Just think of the outcry that would occur here in America if we launched missiles into Mexican border towns to take out drug lords (basically terrorists) and killed innocent Mexican citizens in the process. There's no way that would fly in the U.S. So how can we justify funding another country to engage in a similar tactic. (Granted, the Mexican border/drug lords is not an identical scenario. But it's similar enough for discussion's purposes.)

 

If the same Mexican drug lords were firing rockets off into Texas or California, Israel's response to Hamas would look tame in comparison. Attacks on the homeland have happened twice in modern history. The first ended with us annihilating Japanese cities, the second we invaded the 'home' country of the perpetrators. Any idea that we would be less heavy handed now is just silly.

 

We do drone strikes that are just as bad or worse. Israel at least gives warnings to the areas. There is no way our military warns anyone before a strike, it's too much of a tactical mistake in eliminating a target.

[NUance]

 

 

The UN is losing all credibility. And the antisemitic lean of many parts of the world is showing. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization, making giving or selling weapons to them a crime. So, somehow the logic translates to by not giving them a very highly advanced weapon system, that is a problem. The UN complaint lists the US at fault also as we helped Israel develop the Iron Dome, and didn't offer the same funding to Hamas.

 

Ha ha! That's an absurd position by the UN. The Iron Dome is a defensive system. It intercepts and destroys the short-range Hamas rockets. How could anyone have a problem with that mission? The only problem I have with the Iron Dome is that the U.S. funded a great portion of it. My criticism of Israel is not with the Iron Dome. It's that they fire mortars and missiles into civilian areas of Palestine. They don't mind killing a dozen innocent people if they have a good chance of killing a Hamas terrorist. Just think of the outcry that would occur here in America if we launched missiles into Mexican border towns to take out drug lords (basically terrorists) and killed innocent Mexican citizens in the process. There's no way that would fly in the U.S. So how can we justify funding another country to engage in a similar tactic. (Granted, the Mexican border/drug lords is not an identical scenario. But it's similar enough for discussion's purposes.)

 

If the same Mexican drug lords were firing rockets off into Texas or California, Israel's response to Hamas would look tame in comparison. Attacks on the homeland have happened twice in modern history. The first ended with us annihilating Japanese cities, the second we invaded the 'home' country of the perpetrators. Any idea that we would be less heavy handed now is just silly.

 

We do drone strikes that are just as bad or worse. Israel at least gives warnings to the areas. There is no way our military warns anyone before a strike, it's too much of a tactical mistake in eliminating a target.

 

 

You're forgetting the Iron Dome. If we had an Iron Dome defense at the Mexican border would we be justified in sending missiles into Mexican border towns? I doubt it. As for Pearl Harbor, that isn't a very good comparison. It wasn't a bunch of terrorists lobbing rockets into a civilian area. It was one military attacking another. Besides, if, back in 1941, we had an Iron Dome that prevented the Japanese from hitting targets or doing substantive damage in Hawaii would our use of nuclear weapons have been justified? (As it is, I'm not sure our use of nuclear weapons was justified in the way it actually played out. In the rest of the world's eyes anyway. )

[strigori]

The Iron Dome is not perfect. And we have never been a nation to sit by and be attacked.

 

Nukes vs Japan is one of those great revisionist history events. There is no question it saved at least tens of thousands of American lives in that war. People see the photos of the aftermath now, and feel bad. But the horrors that would be a full scale land invasion of the Japanese Islands with a culture that would feel compelled to fight to the last man would have been far worse on both sides in the long run.

 

And in the post WWII world everyone seems to forget that the ONLY true rule of war is to win.If you lose, no one will remember how you stuck to the rules. We are so used to the military actions where our homeland is in no danger. All these rules about who can shoot whom, and when, are all garbage. Non-uniformed 'civilians' can be just as much of a military support network as those in uniform. All a bunch of rules that have an odd resemblance of how wars were fought pre-American Revolution with the armies in nice neat lines shooting at each other till one side retreated. Its all very nice and neat to support the politicians and military industrial complex.

 

Hamas has a stated goal to remove Israel from the map, and kill all of the Jews in the "Holy Land" Talking it out really is not going to be an option.

[Marf]

 

 

 

The UN is losing all credibility. And the antisemitic lean of many parts of the world is showing. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization, making giving or selling weapons to them a crime. So, somehow the logic translates to by not giving them a very highly advanced weapon system, that is a problem. The UN complaint lists the US at fault also as we helped Israel develop the Iron Dome, and didn't offer the same funding to Hamas.

 

Ha ha! That's an absurd position by the UN. The Iron Dome is a defensive system. It intercepts and destroys the short-range Hamas rockets. How could anyone have a problem with that mission? The only problem I have with the Iron Dome is that the U.S. funded a great portion of it. My criticism of Israel is not with the Iron Dome. It's that they fire mortars and missiles into civilian areas of Palestine. They don't mind killing a dozen innocent people if they have a good chance of killing a Hamas terrorist. Just think of the outcry that would occur here in America if we launched missiles into Mexican border towns to take out drug lords (basically terrorists) and killed innocent Mexican citizens in the process. There's no way that would fly in the U.S. So how can we justify funding another country to engage in a similar tactic. (Granted, the Mexican border/drug lords is not an identical scenario. But it's similar enough for discussion's purposes.)

 

If the same Mexican drug lords were firing rockets off into Texas or California, Israel's response to Hamas would look tame in comparison. Attacks on the homeland have happened twice in modern history. The first ended with us annihilating Japanese cities, the second we invaded the 'home' country of the perpetrators. Any idea that we would be less heavy handed now is just silly.

 

We do drone strikes that are just as bad or worse. Israel at least gives warnings to the areas. There is no way our military warns anyone before a strike, it's too much of a tactical mistake in eliminating a target.

 

 

You're forgetting the Iron Dome. If we had an Iron Dome defense at the Mexican border would we be justified in sending missiles into Mexican border towns? I doubt it. As for Pearl Harbor, that isn't a very good comparison. It wasn't a bunch of terrorists lobbing rockets into a civilian area. It was one military attacking another. Besides, if, back in 1941, we had an Iron Dome that prevented the Japanese from hitting targets or doing substantive damage in Hawaii would our use of nuclear weapons have been justified? (As it is, I'm not sure our use of nuclear weapons was justified in the way it actually played out. In the rest of the world's eyes anyway. )

 

 

So, if we had an Iron Dome, shooting rockets at us would be acceptable because we have defenses against rockets? Is that what you're insinuating?

[carlfense]

So, if we had an Iron Dome, shooting rockets at us would be acceptable because we have defenses against rockets? Is that what you're insinuating?

I don't think that NUance was saying that it would acceptable. I think that he was saying that a response should be somewhat proportional to the threat.

 

If you're sitting securely in an M1A2 MBT and a kid is peppering the outside with rocks from his slingshot are you justified in invading his town and killing a few hundred innocent people?

[NUance]

 

 

 

 

The UN is losing all credibility. And the antisemitic lean of many parts of the world is showing. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization, making giving or selling weapons to them a crime. So, somehow the logic translates to by not giving them a very highly advanced weapon system, that is a problem. The UN complaint lists the US at fault also as we helped Israel develop the Iron Dome, and didn't offer the same funding to Hamas.

 

Ha ha! That's an absurd position by the UN. The Iron Dome is a defensive system. It intercepts and destroys the short-range Hamas rockets. How could anyone have a problem with that mission? The only problem I have with the Iron Dome is that the U.S. funded a great portion of it. My criticism of Israel is not with the Iron Dome. It's that they fire mortars and missiles into civilian areas of Palestine. They don't mind killing a dozen innocent people if they have a good chance of killing a Hamas terrorist. Just think of the outcry that would occur here in America if we launched missiles into Mexican border towns to take out drug lords (basically terrorists) and killed innocent Mexican citizens in the process. There's no way that would fly in the U.S. So how can we justify funding another country to engage in a similar tactic. (Granted, the Mexican border/drug lords is not an identical scenario. But it's similar enough for discussion's purposes.)

 

If the same Mexican drug lords were firing rockets off into Texas or California, Israel's response to Hamas would look tame in comparison. Attacks on the homeland have happened twice in modern history. The first ended with us annihilating Japanese cities, the second we invaded the 'home' country of the perpetrators. Any idea that we would be less heavy handed now is just silly.

 

We do drone strikes that are just as bad or worse. Israel at least gives warnings to the areas. There is no way our military warns anyone before a strike, it's too much of a tactical mistake in eliminating a target.

 

 

You're forgetting the Iron Dome. If we had an Iron Dome defense at the Mexican border would we be justified in sending missiles into Mexican border towns? I doubt it. As for Pearl Harbor, that isn't a very good comparison. It wasn't a bunch of terrorists lobbing rockets into a civilian area. It was one military attacking another. Besides, if, back in 1941, we had an Iron Dome that prevented the Japanese from hitting targets or doing substantive damage in Hawaii would our use of nuclear weapons have been justified? (As it is, I'm not sure our use of nuclear weapons was justified in the way it actually played out. In the rest of the world's eyes anyway. )

 

 

So, if we had an Iron Dome, shooting rockets at us would be acceptable because we have defenses against rockets? Is that what you're insinuating?

 

 

I'm not saying Hamas, or in my hypothetical, the drug lords, are right. They're not. But their wrong wouldn't justify us to kill neighborhoods of innocent Mexican civilians to get at them. Would it?

[BigRedBuster]

I have always thought that the US should be in the business of developing and selling defense systems. Let's build, develop and sell to the rest of the world the best defense systems humans have ever seen. A knew offensive weapon is developed by some country? Develop a defense system for it and sell it to their neighbors.

 

I never have understood why the world gets so upset by us with defense systems. I remember when we installed missile defense systems in eastern Europe to defend against the threat from Russia. Russia threw a hissy fit over the entire thing. Really? Why are you pissed at a defense system? Is it preventing you from invading or attacking? Hmmmm......

 

Now, in this instance, I guess I can see someone being upset if we gave a missile defense system to Israel and they then turned around and started lobbing bombs at the other side. Well....maybe we should offer it to the other side. One stipulation. We hold a code that disarms the defense system if you attack in any way the other side. There...both sides have the defense system and if you F' up, it's gone and you are left holding your johnson.

[TGHusker]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/08/04/some-are-calling-this-the-most-important-video-about-israel-ever-made-and-its-taking-the-internet-by-storm/

 

[Micheal]

I understand both sides to this argument. Yes it is sad that innocent civilians are being killed, my heart goes out to those displaced, harmed, killed, losing family members, friends, it must be horrific.

 

I understand also that Israel is getting tired of rockets being launched into their country, terrorists coming in by tunnels. I feel if the United States had this issue with terrorists from Mexico or Canada, we would go in and eliminate the threat, with or without the permission of the governing authorities.

 

If it is true that Hamas has been hiding rockets in schools, firing rockets from hospital parking lots. I understand why Israel attacks those targets. If true, Hamas is putting the innocents of Gaza in harms way and has no right to blame anyone but themselves.

[walksalone]

Funny thing is, this all started over 3 Israeli kids that were killed by Palestinians with no proof of that even being the case...

 

They need to wipe each other out. The sooner both of those entities were gone from the earth, things start getting a little bit better...

[BigRedBuster]

A part of this that just leaves me shaking my head.

 

The Palestinians dug these tunnels so that their operatives and terrorists can get into Israel and do damage. Israel goes into take the tunnels out and the Palestinians act like it's just awful that Israel would be coming in and doing that.

 

On the flip side, why doesn't Israel just destroy the parts of the tunnel that is on their side of the border? They obviously know where they are. Sit there with military and take out anyone who tries to rebuild them once they reach their side.

 

There is so much about this entire episode that just doesn't make much sense.

[knapplc]

Israel found way more tunnels on the Gaza side than they anticipated. Since they didn't know every exit point in their territory, they went into Gaza to find the entry points.

Another issue is the rockets, which are fired from non-fixed points throughout Gaza. Here's a pretty damning video of Hamas building and firing a rocket from inside a civilian area:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033?pfrom=home-lateststories

And here's a pretty good graphic (albeit peppered with Reddit tomfoolery) showing the lack of need to fire rockets from densely-populated areas.

 

Hamas knows what it's doing firing those rockets from the city rather than the surrounding fields. They want the retal strike by Israel to hit civilians. Makes Israel look bad.

[NUance]

 

The United Nations has found troves of rockets hidden in three of its schools since the conflict began. We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school, Chris Gunness, spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, said in statement published Wednesday by the Times of Israel. This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of U.N.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/

 

Well the U.N. itself says they've found rockets in their schools, good enough for you Mel?

 

 

 

But I don't think it's necessarily because the school administrators let the Hamas terrorists store their rockets there, or even knew about it. As per the quote below from the same article, some of the schools being targeted are U.N. run schools. And nobody is accusing the U.N. of complicity with Hamas.

 

We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school, Chris Gunness, spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, said

 

(snip)

 

Earlier this month, the United Nations also found rockets piled inside one of its vacant schools near other schools used to accommodate displaced people.

As for the Palestinians, I'm not saying that all Palestinian civilians have clean hands. In fact, I suspect some of them work closely with Hamas, or otherwise support Hamas, even if they themselves don't participate in terrorist activities. But I also think there are a lot of innocent Palestinians who have nothing to do with the terrorists, but are nonetheless getting killed by by some of Israel's actions.

 

 

 

/edit: Heh, that's weird. The post of BrayWyatt's from 06 Aug 2014 - 07:31 AM that I quoted from seems to have disappeared. Okay now, who deleted it??

[knapplc]

/edit: Heh, that's weird. The post of BrayWyatt's from 06 Aug 2014 - 07:31 AM that I quoted from seems to have disappeared. Okay now, who deleted it??

 

 

If it contained Hooked on Huskers' quote slandering a specific ethnic group, it's been moved to the Offending Posts thread in the Woodshed. There's no place for that here.

[NUance]

Another issue is the rockets, which are fired from non-fixed points throughout Gaza. Here's a pretty damning video of Hamas building and firing a rocket from inside a civilian area:

 

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033?pfrom=home-lateststories

That's an excellent, excellent video highlighting the problem. Apparently a couple of Hamas guys can sneak in and set up a rocket in just a couple hours. And the people who live and work nearby may not even know what is being done until there is a rocket launch followed closely by an Israeli retaliatory strike. The whole Palestinian situation is a powder keg ready to blow. And Hamas is doing their best to set it off and start a war.