Target, Bathrooms, & a PC culture

[Scratchtown]

And I've already said it before, women can be peeping "Toms" too. There's nothing to stop a woman from watching me while I pee except thin cracks in the stall door. There are also plenty of male sexual predators who are interested in men.

 

I also feel like this is the last place a sexual predator would try something like that.

Moiraine, I think we need to see the big picture here. This goes beyond just target as well. They started a new policy, who's next? Malls, Restaurants, Movie Theaters, BARS, nightlife entertainment areas...

 

I think when you look beyond Target, that's when the scenario's start to look more concerning.

 

"What about sex offenders? Those that have already been charged with possessing child porn, sexual assault, etc...How do we keep THEM from abusing this policy?"

 

How do we monitor or keep them from doing so now?

 

We don't.

[NM11046]

 

And I've already said it before, women can be peeping "Toms" too. There's nothing to stop a woman from watching me while I pee except thin cracks in the stall door. There are also plenty of male sexual predators who are interested in men.

 

I also feel like this is the last place a sexual predator would try something like that.

Moiraine, I think we need to see the big picture here. This goes beyond just target as well. They started a new policy, who's next? Malls, Restaurants, Movie Theaters, BARS, nightlife entertainment areas...

 

I think when you look beyond Target, that's when the scenario's start to look more concerning.

 

"What about sex offenders? Those that have already been charged with possessing child porn, sexual assault, etc...How do we keep THEM from abusing this policy?"

 

How do we monitor or keep them from doing so now?

 

We don't.

 

Exactly.

[Landlord]

I just think people are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist all in the name of trying to be seen as inclusive. I'm not proposing we ban trans from certain restrooms, I'm saying don't change anything at all.

 

 

All I can say is that for trans people, there is a problem that exists. Don't change anything at all is ignoring the study I referenced where 70% of trans people have responded to being abused/threatened/unwelcome just trying to use public restrooms.

 

I agree that there is plenty of fearmongering, knee-jerk legislation and overreactions on both sides, but which is worse: someone like Target saying, "Hey, everyone is welcome to feel safe using our bathrooms", or states like North Carolina and others trying to pass new laws saying, "Too bad. If you were born with a penis, even if you now identify as a woman, look like a woman, talk like a woman, and act like a woman, you use the men's bathroom."

[Landlord]

I'd like to be on record saying that I don't necessarily know if new added legislation is necessary or not for this topic. Maybe, it is, maybe it's not. But I very much feel like the negative/opposed reaction to Target's policy is extremely overblown and the result of fearmongering.

 

Coach, you asked about sex offenders. There is a ton of data/evidence on this that shows things such as the overwhelming majority of sex crimes being by non-repeat offenders who aren't on the registry, the vast majority of sexual crimes being perpetrated by someone who knows or is acquainted with the victim, the minority of sexual crimes being committed in public, and even less than that taking place in bathrooms.

 

 

 

So, is Target's new policy opening the window of opportunity for sex offenders to pose as transgendered people in order to rape our spouses and children? Well.....no, probably not. The data isn't there. Maybe someone could twist a semi-compelling reason that it increases the likelihood of risk, but until someone produces some kind of study or validated research showing that risk increase to be anything other than incredibly minute, I fail to see the problem, since we live with accepted minute risks in life all the time.

 

 

 

 

Can public restrooms be dangerous places and potential targets (no pun intended) for voyeurs, exhibitionists, and pedophiles? Yes! But, that’s always been the case, long before Target’s policy announcement. Vigilance, caution, and common sense have always been advisable. You shouldn’t need policies or laws to convince you of that.

What are the chances that you’re going to encounter a transgender individual in a restroom at Target? Infinitesimally small! What are the chances that this individual will pose some threat to you or a member of your family? Even smaller. What are the chances and likelihood of women and children being victimized, traumatized, harmed, or abused within communities of faith at the hands of trusted individuals? Sadly, tragically, and damnably far greater.

[NM11046]

 

I'd like to be on record saying that I don't necessarily know if new added legislation is necessary or not for this topic. Maybe, it is, maybe it's not. But I very much feel like the negative/opposed reaction to Target's policy is extremely overblown and the result of fearmongering.

 

Coach, you asked about sex offenders. There is a ton of data/evidence on this that shows things such as the overwhelming majority of sex crimes being by non-repeat offenders who aren't on the registry, the vast majority of sexual crimes being perpetrated by someone who knows or is acquainted with the victim, the minority of sexual crimes being committed in public, and even less than that taking place in bathrooms.

 

 

 

So, is Target's new policy opening the window of opportunity for sex offenders to pose as transgendered people in order to rape our spouses and children? Well.....no, probably not. The data isn't there. Maybe someone could twist a semi-compelling reason that it increases the likelihood of risk, but until someone produces some kind of study or validated research showing that risk increase to be anything other than incredibly minute, I fail to see the problem, since we live with accepted minute risks in life all the time.

 

 

 

 

Can public restrooms be dangerous places and potential targets (no pun intended) for voyeurs, exhibitionists, and pedophiles? Yes! But, that’s always been the case, long before Target’s policy announcement. Vigilance, caution, and common sense have always been advisable. You shouldn’t need policies or laws to convince you of that.

What are the chances that you’re going to encounter a transgender individual in a restroom at Target? Infinitesimally small! What are the chances that this individual will pose some threat to you or a member of your family? Even smaller. What are the chances and likelihood of women and children being victimized, traumatized, harmed, or abused within communities of faith at the hands of trusted individuals whom they believe are sincerely serving the Christ that they claim to follow? Sadly, tragically, and damnably far greater.

 

Well said. THANK YOU Landlord. Rational, fact based, humane comments. I think I'm going to stop reading this thread at this time, as nothing said after this is worthy of consideration.

[Red Dead Redemption]

speaking of Target and bathrooms...

 

[JJ Husker]

I'd like to be on record saying that I don't necessarily know if new added legislation is necessary or not for this topic. Maybe, it is, maybe it's not. But I very much feel like the negative/opposed reaction to Target's policy is extremely overblown and the result of fearmongering.

 

Coach, you asked about sex offenders. There is a ton of data/evidence on this that shows things such as the overwhelming majority of sex crimes being by non-repeat offenders who aren't on the registry, the vast majority of sexual crimes being perpetrated by someone who knows or is acquainted with the victim, the minority of sexual crimes being committed in public, and even less than that taking place in bathrooms.

 

 

 

So, is Target's new policy opening the window of opportunity for sex offenders to pose as transgendered people in order to rape our spouses and children? Well.....no, probably not. The data isn't there. Maybe someone could twist a semi-compelling reason that it increases the likelihood of risk, but until someone produces some kind of study or validated research showing that risk increase to be anything other than incredibly minute, I fail to see the problem, since we live with accepted minute risks in life all the time.

 

 

 

 

Can public restrooms be dangerous places and potential targets (no pun intended) for voyeurs, exhibitionists, and pedophiles? Yes! But, thats always been the case, long before Targets policy announcement. Vigilance, caution, and common sense have always been advisable. You shouldnt need policies or laws to convince you of that.

 

What are the chances that youre going to encounter a transgender individual in a restroom at Target? Infinitesimally small! What are the chances that this individual will pose some threat to you or a member of your family? Even smaller. What are the chances and likelihood of women and children being victimized, traumatized, harmed, or abused within communities of faith at the hands of trusted individuals? Sadly, tragically, and damnably far greater.

I agree with all of this with the one caveat being, I don't think any policy or law should be adopted that makes it any easier for potential sexual predators, voyeurs, and peepers (I am not not including trans people in this description) to enter the wrong restroom. Primarily concerned with men, who look like men, entering the ladies room. I would assume that most trans men (formerly men anyway, I don't know the proper way to refer to them once they head down the woman path) tend to dress and act like women. If they want to use the women's room, fine. And vice versa for trans women who look and act like men, go ahead and use the men's room. The problem in my mind would surface when a man (looks like a man, acts like man, and is probably a man up to no good) sharing the room with women. Do I think it's a big problem? No. But any instances of this occurring could probably be reduced by not simply flinging the doors open and saying do whatever you feel like. That is all the opening some of these sickos (again, not trans people) would need. I am opposed to laws like the one in North Carolina where they ban them. And I am opposed to advertising, like Target, to do whatever you wish. I think the current, or recently former, system has served us pretty darned well, evidenced by there not being a whole bunch abuse happening in public restrooms (at least none I am aware of). I guess I don't know any trans people but I am guessing they desire to use the facilities of the sex that they most closely identify with, look like, and act like. So I say just do that.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

 

 

Maybe I feel uncomfortable sharing a restroom with blonde haired people. Should I expect things to be changed to cater to my quirks?

No. Blonde haired people should be able to use gendered public restrooms according to how they identify, same as you. And same as transgendered people. No matter how many other people have a problem with it.

 

Equal protection under the law.

Where is the equal protection for my wife and daughter to not be subjected to using a restroom with a man? I guess they dont count.

 

 

And we're right back to square one with the question: how do you determine who is a man and who is a woman? The person you believe enters the women's restroom as a man certainly believes he's a woman. Who's more correct? At what point does their freedom interfere with your wife's freedom? At what point does your wife's freedom interfere with their freedom? As far as I know, your wife and the transgender person are both people.

[It'sNotAFakeID]

 

As far as your 2nd point, (I assume you are a man) try walking into the women's restroom sometime and see what happens.

Ah, now we DO get to something irrelevant. Their reaction is irrelevant as to whether it's a crime.

 

 

 

I have a gun and a permit that shows I'm legally allowed to carry it. I walk around waving it because it's fun to do and because I have a piece of paper that says I can carry it. It makes people extremely uncomfortable, as I'm sure it would you. Should someone stop me from doing it?

 

 

No, someone shouldn't stop you from doing it. But I'd hope you'd have the common decency and respect to not deliberately make people uncomfortable because "it's my right."

[zoogs]

Re: the "easier for criminals" argument, what kind of crime are we talking about that ceases to be a crime by allowing the perpetrator to say "I'm actually this other gender?"

[It'sNotAFakeID]

 

Re: the "easier for criminals" argument, what kind of crime are we talking about that ceases to be a crime by allowing the perpetrator to say "I'm actually this other gender?"

 

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure a woman ogling another or man ogling another man is just as much a crime.

 

"No officer, it's okay. We're both women."

[JJ Husker]

Re: the "easier for criminals" argument, what kind of crime are we talking about that ceases to be a crime by allowing the perpetrator to say "I'm actually this other gender?"

Any sexual assault is a crime. It doesn't matter who or how it happens. But the last time I checked laws deeming something a crime don't keep the crime from happening. So I am not really concerned about whether it is a crime or not.

 

What concerns me is making it easier for a crime or deviant behavior to happen. I believe that if a company, like Target, simply tells everyone "do whatever you prefer" then that opens the door for more possible criminal behavior. It's not trans people I'm worried about. It's the prototypical male that now thinks "hey I may be a man and look like a man but Target just invited me to use the women's restroom if I feel like it, so look out ladies here I come" I hope that explains it. It has nothing to do with preventing trans from doing what makes them most comfortable.

[JJ Husker]

 

Re: the "easier for criminals" argument, what kind of crime are we talking about that ceases to be a crime by allowing the perpetrator to say "I'm actually this other gender?"

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure a woman ogling another or man ogling another man is just as much a crime.

 

"No officer, it's okay. We're both women."

Is that a crime? Ogling in a public restroom? Sure it's creepy and wrong but it seems awful hard to apply any law I am aware of.

[JJ Husker]

 

 

 

"What about sex offenders? Those that have already been charged with possessing child porn, sexual assault, etc...How do we keep THEM from abusing this policy?"[/size]

 

How do we monitor or keep them from doing so now?[/size]

 

We don't.

Exactly.

I guess I am now confused which side you are taking on this deal. Currently, standard convention helps prevent men from entering the ladies room. These guys know today that people will look at them funny and probably say something if they attempt to use the women's room. With this new Target policy, there is not even that deterrent to help keep them out. I realize that may cause a little discomfort for some trans people but I really do believe that would serve society as whole better.

[NM11046]

 

 

 

"What about sex offenders? Those that have already been charged with possessing child porn, sexual assault, etc...How do we keep THEM from abusing this policy?"[/size]

 

How do we monitor or keep them from doing so now?[/size]

We don't.

Exactly.

I guess I am now confused which side you are taking on this deal. Currently, standard convention helps prevent men from entering the ladies room. These guys know today that people will look at them funny and probably say something if they attempt to use the women's room. With this new Target policy, there is not even that deterrent to help keep them out. I realize that may cause a little discomfort for some trans people but I really do believe that would serve society as whole better.

 

My point is that we can't assume that sex offenders are the opposite sex, or same sex. We can not monitor the risky "bathroom goers" at all right now anyway. By allowing transgendered to use the bathroom aligned to who they are today we are not increasing risk, as we have no clue what risk is now and we don't monitor and can't regulate it. Today men can go into mens rooms and prey on men. Women can go into womens' rooms and prey on women. Nothing changes if a transwoman goes into a ladies room. She may or may not be a good person or a sexual deviant just like everyone in every stall next to her.