The General Election

[JJ Husker]

False equivalency comes up again, and again, and again.

 

You can't credibly demand equal treatment in the name of balance when one candidate has said and done the things Donald Trump has. The fact that Trump, through his outrageous and boisterous behavior, has earned blistering criticism doesn't mean that we need to give the same credence to the hysteria right-wing agitators have been trying to whip up.

 

We went through this in a status message where you named everyone from (I believe) Reagan to Nixon to Bush to Bill Clinton as somewhere in the range of acceptable. You take them or anyone else and we can show you legitimate, serious criticisms of their policies or administrations.

 

None of that begins to register against Trump. Not Iran Contra, not the Iraq War, not even Watergate.

Hey, I get that in many ways Trump is worse than Hillary. I. Get. It. But this false equivalency crap has to stop. There are not only two choices. It doesn't have to be this one or that one. Once a person gets beyon THAT brainwashing that our 2 party political system has been so successful with, then you can realize that "false equivalency" is not the problem. The problem is two candidates, neither of which is deserving of anyone's support. At this point, if a person supports either one of them, that speaks volumes about what that person really supports. I don't buy the excuse of "well yeah, my candidate is bad but your's is worse". That is something you would hear on a playground. How about this? If your candidate is bad, don't support them. That is the only way future prospects are going to learn. What you do by supporting liars and cheats and worthless human beings is help assure we'll get more like them in the future. It hurts our system. Reject all bad candidates. The fact another may be worse is just an excuse.

[Danny Bateman]

The only purpose for this thread is to provide a place for opposing supporters to argue with each other. 50 pages in and nobody is going to budge one inch. It doesn't matter to most of the people posting in here how bad their candidate is. They ignore their flaws and constantly go after the other side. It has gotten.....predictable, and thus, very boring.

 

There are a couple threads that have just been started that the left supporters are ignoring because, although it should provide definitive proof of why no one should support Hillary (that has already been made glaringly obvious for Trump), yet her supporters plug their ears, audibly make the la la la la sounds, and come in here to complain yet more about Trump. Soros is ignored......until say the Koch brothers do something, then it is a problem. The level of brainwashing makes me sad. I am so glad I can in no way support either one of them. The contortions a person has to jump through to support either of them is mind-boggling. Why do it?

 

Add me to the Clinton camp as well.

 

We'll see where this goes with Soros. Maybe the media will pick it up and run with it. One thing I suppose I have in common with those on the right is that with Clinton (much like with the media and Trump), it gets really tiring being dictated to about what does and does not constitute a "scandal."

 

The fact that they offer up this Soros story as a "scandal" that's suffering a "bizarre media black-out' is a bit telling. I think that legitimate news tends to get covered by the media writ large. Lesser stories don't tend to get the coverage. Just because one faction of people are outraged a story doesn't gain steam and attach words like "scandal" and "media black-out' to it doesn't mean there's some nefarious plot to intentionally bury news. The explanation that the media conspires and deliberately buries stories like this Soros one or ones that could damage someone like Clinton to rig elections is a bit too tin-foily for my tastes.

 

I can decide for myself what is and is not a scandal. It's fatiguing at a certain point having that term lobbed at Clinton, so there's a natural inclination to tune it out.

[zoogs]

I'm sorry, but there are two options. You can inveigh against that all you want; it won't change the reality.

 

If this is brainwashing, then support of any party, large or small, is brainwashing. It's simply political alignment. It's how America has organized itself with respect to how politics works in this country. Parties will change, in policy if not in name, though the binary nature might not.

 

It's not a perfect runoff process that we have for the national presidential election. Heck, it's a really bizarre one. But it is what we do have, at least for now.

 

Johnson's party represents very few people. Jill Stein's party represents even fewer. It's hardly an injustice that they are both likely to win zero electoral votes.

[JJ Husker]

I'm sorry, but there are two options. You can inveigh against that all you want; it won't change the reality.

 

If this is brainwashing, then support of any party, large or small, is brainwashing. It's simply political alignment. It's how America has organized itself with respect to how politics works in this country. Parties will change, in policy if not in name, though the binary nature might not.

 

It's not a perfect runoff process that we have for the national presidential election. Heck, it's a really bizarre one. But it is what we do have, at least for now.

 

Johnson's party represents very few people. Jill Stein's party represents even fewer. It's hardly an injustice that they are both likely to win zero electoral votes.

Okay. You support Hillary Clinton and everything she stands for. That is fine. No, really. You haven't been one to say she is bad but better than so and so. If you like her and her policies, that is your right and privilege to support her. I disagree with it and think she is unworthy of support but everyone has different opinions.

 

I just really tire of the people that won't own it to the extent you and dudeguyy and NM and a few others do. For some others, it is like they are being forced to support Hillary because Trump is just so much worse. Like I said, anybody that supports either one of these candidates at this point really should dispense with invoking how rotten the other is. Go ahead and support the candidate that best represents you and be proud of it. But you don't get to disown the inconveniences of that support with mere words.

 

Sorry, I've just really soured on our whole political process. These 2 POS candidates have pushed me over the edge. Sure I'd like everyone to come to that realization with me but it isn't going to happen. BRB and myself have gotten there and hopefully many others that are simply ignoring this topic because of its uselessness. I just can't muster the energy or rationale to support either one.

 

Anyway, go ahead and have fun in here. I probably won't visit this page again unless there is some earth shattering news on the election front.

[huskerfan2000]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually know a black person who does support Trump. He is well educated, is the head of HR at a firm that employs around 1,200 people, and it simply baffles me. I guess party loyalty simply can't be broken with some people.

 

Who are you voting for?

 

Anyone but Trump. It's very, very clear that he is the greatest of all evils that will be on the ballot. Go ahead and run in yourself into another circle about emails and benghazi though.

 

 

So, then you are voting for Hillary.. Love the hypocrisy!

 

If I were in a state that could swing either way, yes I would vote Hillary as a vote against Trump. Don't act like the two candidates are similar on any level though.

 

 

 

They are way more alike than you understand, evidently. Both are all about themselves and will do anything to get what they want. ANYTHING!

 

 

EDIT: it is seriously scary how little some of you really know or care to know about the person you are going to vote for.

 

Because some of us have different opinions than you, or different priorities, or different morals doesn't mean we're dumb or uneducated or don't care about the election. From what I can tell everyone that has participated in these back and forth mind numbing, never moving forward conversations is quite well read on why they are voting for the candidate they are voting for.

 

Share your comments about your candidate all you want, but don't imply that others don't know what they're doing or don't understand what's at stake with this election just because they're not climbing on your train.

 

 

you can have differing opinions, but to ignore the things that Hillary has done and said, shows partisan ignorance at best!

[zoogs]

It's also interesting to me that we'll see arguments for Johnson, and arguments for issues over party, and yet most of us seem completely allergic to libertarian arguments when they're made. We're not very libertarian here, and the one guy who is seems like a firm Hillary voter at least for November.

 

For some others, it is like they are being forced to support Hillary because Trump is just so much worse.

Is this not completely accurate?

If you don't think Trump is so much worse, hey, to each their own. It's puzzling, but you're entitled both to hold the opinion and to make the case for it as often or not as you wish.

I suppose it comes down to whether you believe GOP character narratives about Clinton, Dem character narratives about Trump, or both in equal measure. What's interesting to me is this view that a subscription to party attack lines might be considered something "outside of 2-party brainwashing".

And to the extent that it is, it's standard minor party politics. In the same way that opposition parties will, in a self-serving bid for power, try to spin you that the last 4/8 years have been unconscionably awful. 'Both parties are SO SO SO awful, and don't worry, we'll be totally better if empowered.' I don't know that opportunistically stirring up cynicism is good for this country. But it's easy to see the unfortunate power of the argument.

[Danny Bateman]

 

I'm sorry, but there are two options. You can inveigh against that all you want; it won't change the reality.

 

If this is brainwashing, then support of any party, large or small, is brainwashing. It's simply political alignment. It's how America has organized itself with respect to how politics works in this country. Parties will change, in policy if not in name, though the binary nature might not.

 

It's not a perfect runoff process that we have for the national presidential election. Heck, it's a really bizarre one. But it is what we do have, at least for now.

 

Johnson's party represents very few people. Jill Stein's party represents even fewer. It's hardly an injustice that they are both likely to win zero electoral votes.

Okay. You support Hillary Clinton and everything she stands for. That is fine. No, really. You haven't been one to say she is bad but better than so and so. If you like her and her policies, that is your right and privilege to support her. I disagree with it and think she is unworthy of support but everyone has different opinions.

 

I just really tire of the people that won't own it to the extent you and dudeguyy and NM and a few others do. For some others, it is like they are being forced to support Hillary because Trump is just so much worse. Like I said, anybody that supports either one of these candidates at this point really should dispense with invoking how rotten the other is. Go ahead and support the candidate that best represents you and be proud of it. But you don't get to disown the inconveniences of that support with mere words.

 

Sorry, I've just really soured on our whole political process. These 2 POS candidates have pushed me over the edge. Sure I'd like everyone to come to that realization with me but it isn't going to happen. BRB and myself have gotten there and hopefully many others that are simply ignoring this topic because of its uselessness. I just can't muster the energy or rationale to support either one.

 

Anyway, go ahead and have fun in here. I probably won't visit this page again unless there is some earth shattering news on the election front.

 

 

Unfortunately, Zoogs is right. These are the two options we got. It reflects perhaps some unrest about the electoral process-- this year I've heard more examples for, say, changing the first past the post system than in years past-- but hopefully people realize the system isn't broken when it puts forth Clinton vs. Trump. It's got plenty of things that could be improved, sure, but it's not broken. Hopefully in four or eight years we can improve some electoral mechanics and it will put forth more widely palatable candidates again.

 

I'm voting for Clinton because I agree with her policies. Simple as that. I also recognize her (numerous) flaws. But I agree that Trump is a menace to America. We'll see what dog and puppy show his new management tries to teach him to reset this thing. It won't matter for me.

 

Re: the bolded, there are low-information voters out there every year. I feel like all of us in here are pretty sharp and pay pretty close attention. Unfortunately, I wonder how much of America is like us. How many of them just catch some headlines on TV or a paper, watch maybe one debate, and vote on that? If it's a large number (I hope it's not but fear it is), that's a damn shame.

 

At the same time, there are hopeless partisans with their heads buried in the sand on both sides. Trump voters seem completely unable to process his serious flaws just the same as some Clinton voters do. That's a shame too, but not much to be done there. Can't really have a rational conversation with a homer. It's like trying to convince some of us on this board that the Skers won't finish a mediocre 7-5 or something this year.

 

I guess my point is that hopefully the system just had a quirky year and spit out a few polarizing candidates this year. I don't think it's broken, just needs some improvement.

 

Make sure you come back for the debates. There should be plenty to talk about.

[BigRedBuster]

You guys just proved the party brainwashing.

[NM11046]

 

 

I'm sorry, but there are two options. You can inveigh against that all you want; it won't change the reality.

 

If this is brainwashing, then support of any party, large or small, is brainwashing. It's simply political alignment. It's how America has organized itself with respect to how politics works in this country. Parties will change, in policy if not in name, though the binary nature might not.

 

It's not a perfect runoff process that we have for the national presidential election. Heck, it's a really bizarre one. But it is what we do have, at least for now.

 

Johnson's party represents very few people. Jill Stein's party represents even fewer. It's hardly an injustice that they are both likely to win zero electoral votes.

Okay. You support Hillary Clinton and everything she stands for. That is fine. No, really. You haven't been one to say she is bad but better than so and so. If you like her and her policies, that is your right and privilege to support her. I disagree with it and think she is unworthy of support but everyone has different opinions.

 

I just really tire of the people that won't own it to the extent you and dudeguyy and NM and a few others do. For some others, it is like they are being forced to support Hillary because Trump is just so much worse. Like I said, anybody that supports either one of these candidates at this point really should dispense with invoking how rotten the other is. Go ahead and support the candidate that best represents you and be proud of it. But you don't get to disown the inconveniences of that support with mere words.

 

Sorry, I've just really soured on our whole political process. These 2 POS candidates have pushed me over the edge. Sure I'd like everyone to come to that realization with me but it isn't going to happen. BRB and myself have gotten there and hopefully many others that are simply ignoring this topic because of its uselessness. I just can't muster the energy or rationale to support either one.

 

Anyway, go ahead and have fun in here. I probably won't visit this page again unless there is some earth shattering news on the election front.

 

 

Unfortunately, Zoogs is right. These are the two options we got. It reflects perhaps some unrest about the electoral process-- this year I've heard more examples for, say, changing the first past the post system than in years past-- but hopefully people realize the system isn't broken when it puts forth Clinton vs. Trump. It's got plenty of things that could be improved, sure, but it's not broken. Hopefully in four or eight years we can improve some electoral mechanics and it will put forth more widely palatable candidates again.

 

I'm voting for Clinton because I agree with her policies. Simple as that. I also recognize her (numerous) flaws. But I agree that Trump is a menace to America. We'll see what dog and puppy show his new management tries to teach him to reset this thing. It won't matter for me.

 

Re: the bolded, there are low-information voters out there every year. I feel like all of us in here are pretty sharp and pay pretty close attention. Unfortunately, I wonder how much of America is like us. How many of them just catch some headlines on TV or a paper, watch maybe one debate, and vote on that? If it's a large number (I hope it's not but fear it is), that's a damn shame.

 

At the same time, there are hopeless partisans with their heads buried in the sand on both sides. Trump voters seem completely unable to process his serious flaws just the same as some Clinton voters do. That's a shame too, but not much to be done there. Can't really have a rational conversation with a homer. It's like trying to convince some of us on this board that the Skers won't finish a mediocre 7-5 or something this year.

 

I guess my point is that hopefully the system just had a quirky year and spit out a few polarizing candidates this year. I don't think it's broken, just needs some improvement.

 

Make sure you come back for the debates. There should be plenty to talk about.

 

What he said

 

Big factor for me is despite her flaws people across the world will still come to the table to partner with or at least have discussions with Hillary. Trump has insulted so many, and his arrogant (some of you would say his 'tell it like it is') attitude and lack of self awareness will not only prevent any sort of partnering or negotiation in any political situation, but he has and will continue to alienate us from the rest of the world.

 

America is a great country, but we too are flawed. To not acknowledge that and act as if every country should strive to be like us is naive. We can learn from a lot other parts of the world and we need other countries. In today's times, there is zero room for error in international relations. He simply has no clue, and has made zero effort to learn or to even surround himself with experts that can help.

 

Social issues are my driver, and there is no way I would cast my vote for someone who has disrespected every person other than white, christian, moneyed men. To allow someone like that to nominate judges to the most important court in the land at a time when rational minds are needed is (imo) irresponsible.

[NM11046]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually know a black person who does support Trump. He is well educated, is the head of HR at a firm that employs around 1,200 people, and it simply baffles me. I guess party loyalty simply can't be broken with some people.

 

Who are you voting for?

 

Anyone but Trump. It's very, very clear that he is the greatest of all evils that will be on the ballot. Go ahead and run in yourself into another circle about emails and benghazi though.

 

 

So, then you are voting for Hillary.. Love the hypocrisy!

 

If I were in a state that could swing either way, yes I would vote Hillary as a vote against Trump. Don't act like the two candidates are similar on any level though.

 

 

 

They are way more alike than you understand, evidently. Both are all about themselves and will do anything to get what they want. ANYTHING!

 

 

EDIT: it is seriously scary how little some of you really know or care to know about the person you are going to vote for.

 

Because some of us have different opinions than you, or different priorities, or different morals doesn't mean we're dumb or uneducated or don't care about the election. From what I can tell everyone that has participated in these back and forth mind numbing, never moving forward conversations is quite well read on why they are voting for the candidate they are voting for.

 

Share your comments about your candidate all you want, but don't imply that others don't know what they're doing or don't understand what's at stake with this election just because they're not climbing on your train.

 

 

you can have differing opinions, but to ignore the things that Hillary has done and said, shows partisan ignorance at best!

 

I don't ignore it. Her flaws in my opinion in no way come close to those of the other candidate. Don't call me ignorant.

[Landlord]

I consider actions as well as words. I don't like to name people and make it personal but, you seem to fall in that amp even though, every once in awhile, you "say" you don't support Hillary.

 

 

I don't at all support Hillary Clinton. I definitely will not vote for her, I'll either vote third-party or abstain, but if I was forced with a gun to my head to pick between her and Trump, I'd pick her without a moment's hesitation.

[Danny Bateman]

Big factor for me is despite her flaws people across the world will still come to the table to partner with or at least have discussions with Hillary. Trump has insulted so many, and his arrogant (some of you would say his 'tell it like it is') attitude and lack of self awareness will not only prevent any sort of partnering or negotiation in any political situation, but he has and will continue to alienate us from the rest of the world.

 

 

If you need further proof of this...

 

 

 

 

Linky

 

The rest of the world generally thinks Obama has done a pretty good job, still likes Clinton, and has no confidence in Trump.

 

 

Obama’s former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, receives mostly positive marks in this year’s survey. Still, ratings for the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee are consistently lower than Obama’s.

Meanwhile, views of Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee, are strongly negative. In nearly half the nations polled, the share of the public with confidence in Trump is in single digits.

Europeans are somewhat less enthusiastic about Hillary Clinton, although her ratings are still mostly positive: A median of 59% have confidence in her. In contrast, ratings for Donald Trump are

overwhelmingly negative. A median of just 9% trust the wealthy real estate developer to do the right thing in world affairs; 85% lack confidence in him.

In the four Asia-Pacific nations surveyed – Australia, China, India and Japan – Obama also receives relatively positive marks. Most Australians and Japanese give Clinton a positive rating and Trump a negative one. The major party nominees are less well-known in China and India.

[huskerfan2000]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually know a black person who does support Trump. He is well educated, is the head of HR at a firm that employs around 1,200 people, and it simply baffles me. I guess party loyalty simply can't be broken with some people.

 

Who are you voting for?

 

Anyone but Trump. It's very, very clear that he is the greatest of all evils that will be on the ballot. Go ahead and run in yourself into another circle about emails and benghazi though.

 

 

So, then you are voting for Hillary.. Love the hypocrisy!

 

If I were in a state that could swing either way, yes I would vote Hillary as a vote against Trump. Don't act like the two candidates are similar on any level though.

 

 

 

They are way more alike than you understand, evidently. Both are all about themselves and will do anything to get what they want. ANYTHING!

 

 

EDIT: it is seriously scary how little some of you really know or care to know about the person you are going to vote for.

 

Because some of us have different opinions than you, or different priorities, or different morals doesn't mean we're dumb or uneducated or don't care about the election. From what I can tell everyone that has participated in these back and forth mind numbing, never moving forward conversations is quite well read on why they are voting for the candidate they are voting for.

 

Share your comments about your candidate all you want, but don't imply that others don't know what they're doing or don't understand what's at stake with this election just because they're not climbing on your train.

 

 

you can have differing opinions, but to ignore the things that Hillary has done and said, shows partisan ignorance at best!

 

I don't ignore it. Her flaws in my opinion in no way come close to those of the other candidate. Don't call me ignorant.

 

 

 

You can read right? Then show me where I called you ignorant. I clearly said "to ignore them is ignorance".

[NM11046]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually know a black person who does support Trump. He is well educated, is the head of HR at a firm that employs around 1,200 people, and it simply baffles me. I guess party loyalty simply can't be broken with some people.

 

Who are you voting for?

 

Anyone but Trump. It's very, very clear that he is the greatest of all evils that will be on the ballot. Go ahead and run in yourself into another circle about emails and benghazi though.

 

 

So, then you are voting for Hillary.. Love the hypocrisy!

 

If I were in a state that could swing either way, yes I would vote Hillary as a vote against Trump. Don't act like the two candidates are similar on any level though.

 

 

 

They are way more alike than you understand, evidently. Both are all about themselves and will do anything to get what they want. ANYTHING!

 

 

EDIT: it is seriously scary how little some of you really know or care to know about the person you are going to vote for.

 

Because some of us have different opinions than you, or different priorities, or different morals doesn't mean we're dumb or uneducated or don't care about the election. From what I can tell everyone that has participated in these back and forth mind numbing, never moving forward conversations is quite well read on why they are voting for the candidate they are voting for.

 

Share your comments about your candidate all you want, but don't imply that others don't know what they're doing or don't understand what's at stake with this election just because they're not climbing on your train.

 

 

you can have differing opinions, but to ignore the things that Hillary has done and said, shows partisan ignorance at best!

 

I don't ignore it. Her flaws in my opinion in no way come close to those of the other candidate. Don't call me ignorant.

 

 

 

You can read right? Then show me where I called you ignorant. I clearly said "to ignore them is ignorance".

 

Dude, you wear me out.

[JJ Husker]

 

I consider actions as well as words. I don't like to name people and make it personal but, you seem to fall in that amp even though, every once in awhile, you "say" you don't support Hillary.

 

 

I don't at all support Hillary Clinton. I definitely will not vote for her, I'll either vote third-party or abstain, but if I was forced with a gun to my head to pick between her and Trump, I'd pick her without a moment's hesitation.

Okay, I'm sorry. I may have attributed a whole bunch of Hillary defending and Trump bashing to you in error. As you know, it's easy to read through all these comments, see 1 or 2 that you disagree with one person, and then assimilate all the other similar comments to that person. That is my fault for not realizing you were to the gun-at-the-head point with Hillary. That is pretty much where I am too. Although, I might be leaning towards just taking that bullet and letting it all be over with at this point.