Islam's "Grey Zone"

[84HuskerLaw]

I believe we are seeing play out what I just described in my comments earlier in this thread. Exactly. Islamic terrorist act in Orlando. Somehow liberals are defending Islam from Islaimic terrorists as though they are not related or connected. These Muslims are carrying out the basic tenets and expressions of Islam. You just cannot defend the radicals who do these things in the name of Islam. The killing of 'gays' (homosexuals) is a fundamental notion within Islam. Trying to say terrorism is some kind of act of 'hate' and not somehow "Islamic" in the case of radical Muslims is nonsensical. At its most basic level, Islam is a philosophy of hate as it teaches and encourages its followers to hate anyone who is not a follower. It is not really complicated. Even for those of you who want to contend that you know many Muslims and work or live amongst many who have not committed attacks or even spoken hatefully of others, you cannot defend these radicals. You simply cannot dismiss the so called 1% of Muslims as being the problem while the other 99% are just fine and dandy 'regular' and everyday folks who are no threat or pose no risk and not part of the problem overall. The millions of Muslims across this country DO NOT stand and protest or publicly oppose or work to stop these 'radicals' because, in my view, they generally agree with and support in spirit the attacks and the motives and 'justifications and rationales for them. If they truly felt these terrorists were not fairly and genuinely representing their 'faith' and philosophy of life and society, then they would be at the fore in combating them. This is just the opposite of Chrisitans who will decry and work hard to prevent the crazies from acting out violently or wrongfully in the name of their faith. This is just not something one can argue. There are NO Muslims working publicly and aggressively to stop these attacks and the rare times when one or a few come forward, they disappear into the shadows and often will use many 'hedge' words, etc in their statements.

[HuskerShark]

It seems that in regards to ISIS, they're gearing up to execute homosexuals and are not shy about their intent. That's much different than the Westboro d*ckwads who obviously have blind hatred toward all things outside the box they live in, but aren't set on max execution of them.

[Danny Bateman]

It looks like we got their head guy. I know they shuffle people in leadership positions like crazy, but it feels good to get the boss after Orlando. I don't know why this isn't bigger news.

 

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi killed in US-led airstrikes in Syria

[The Dude]

I'm not sure if it's been confirmed.

 

As I understand it he is very intelligent, so it wouldn't be insignificant.

[Danny Bateman]

That's a good point. The only outlets I can find carrying this were UK-based ones.

Let's hope that there's fire where we've got some smoke.

[The Dude]

Lack of confirmation confirmed.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/14/us-cant-confirm-reports-islamic-state-leader-killed/85859086/

[zoogs]

To all those focusing on imams in the Middle East spouting anti-gay rhetoric, American Muslisms are much more likely than American evangelical Christians to approve of homosexuality. From a 2015 Pew poll, 42% of American Muslisms support same-sex recognition; this was 28% among American Evangelical Christians.

 

More than one pastor calling himself Christian f'ing cheered Orlando.

 

Yeah. Cheered.

 

Pastor Roger Jiminez, Verity Baptist Church, Sacramento, California :

I think that’s great. I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida, is a little safer tonight. The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is I’m kind of upset he didn’t finish the job – because these people are predators. They are abusers.

 

I wish the government would round them all up, put them up against a firing wall, put the firing squad in front of them and blow their brains out.

(Don't worry, he doubled down on that while complaining about political correctness.)

 

Steven Anderson, Faithful Word Baptist Church, Tempe, Arizona:

The good news is that at least 50 of these pedophiles are not going to be harming children anymore. The bad news is that a lot of the homos in the bar are still alive, so they’re going to continue to molest children and recruit people into their filthy homosexual lifestyle.

 

 

...I'm not sad about it; I'm not going to cry about it....[the victims] were going to die of AIDS and syphilis and whatever else, they were going to die early anyway.

Pastor Kevin Swanson, Orthodox Presbyterian Church called for the death penalty for gay people. This was before Orlando, to be fair. He did call the Paris victims devil-worshippers and that event a 'message from God'.

 

These guys are extreme for the "kill gays" part. Their rhetoric on homosexuality as abomination is I think a lot more mainstream in American Christianity. Fading, but familiar.

 

The point is, you don't have to look even a stone's throw away in time or place to find that the face of disgusting does not discriminate race or nationality or religion. It will gladly grace all kinds of people.

 

Second, to those who don't think the constant Western drumbeat of "Destroy Radical Islam" might be interpreted as an attack on the whole of the religion, consider just for a moment the insane, widespread American belief that Christianity is under assault in this country.

 

Christmas and Starbucks cups. Not wanting "God" on our national currency, or part of the Pledge of Allegiance recited daily by public school students. You all know someone who truly, fundamentaly believes that Christians are being persecuted here. Victimhood has an inherent, powerful appeal. It's the exact same appeal (to different ends) made by ISIS. And that is a part of the battleground. A more significant part, I would argue, than the actual battleground. A captivating idea -- in this case, West vs Middle East, America vs Islam, is harder to kill than any number of people.

 

*I met an an Indian-American once, recently, who very casually told me he was glad America was at war with Muslisms. I said, "What?" He said, "Yeah. You know how they treat their women over there?" Well, yeah. But what? Making the case that the West is at war with terrorism, not Islam itself ... it's not an easy one (because what does this look like?!), but it is important.

[ZRod]

Fundamentally these people are hateful... yeah... sure...

 

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2016/06/muslim_group_to_hold_prayer_se.html

 

ROCHESTER HILLS -- A Metro Detroit Muslim group plans to hold a prayer service Tuesday night for the victims in the Sunday mass shooting in Orlando that left 50 people dead and over 50 people injured.

 

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community Center in Rochester Hills will host the service, and is encouraging its members to break fast in order to donate blood for those in need.

[The Dude]

Second, to those who don't think the constant Western drumbeat of "Destroy Radical Islam" might be interpreted as an attack on the whole of the religion, consider just for a moment the insane, widespread American belief that Christianity is under assault in this country.

 

Right, and we have no problem discussing how insane it is when it comes to Christianity. Why isn't it considered equally insane when legitimate criticisms of Islam are conflated with demonizing Muslim people as a whole? Why that double standard?

[funhusker]

 

Second, to those who don't think the constant Western drumbeat of "Destroy Radical Islam" might be interpreted as an attack on the whole of the religion, consider just for a moment the insane, widespread American belief that Christianity is under assault in this country.

Right, and we have no problem discussing how insane it is when it comes to Christianity. Why isn't it considered equally insane when legitimate criticisms of Islam are conflated with demonizing Muslim people as a whole? Why that double standard?

 

No one is saying the ideas of some Muslims on homosexuality arent't an issue. It is no more okay for a Muslim to wish death upon gays than for a Christian. We are simply recognizing it is an issue found in other religions, namely the predominant religion in the United States. The religion that many people claim our nation was founded on.

 

I don't think you have to go too far in the P&R forums to find threads where people point out the ridiculousness of painting Christians with a broad brush in any of the LGBT threads....

[The Dude]

We are simply recognizing it is an issue found in other religions, namely the predominant religion in the United States. The religion that many people claim our nation was founded on.

 

I certainly agree with the that, I'm just not sure it's more beneficial to focus on that than the actual issue.

 

Can you imagine if the reaction to something awful a Christian did was "hey, Muslims can be shitheads too!"?

 

While that's certainly true, it wouldn't be helpful in understanding the actual processes that led to the heinous act.

[funhusker]

 

We are simply recognizing it is an issue found in other religions, namely the predominant religion in the United States. The religion that many people claim our nation was founded on.

I certainly agree with the that, I'm just not sure it's more beneficial to focus on that than the actual issue.

 

Can you imagine if the reaction to something awful a Christian did was "hey, Muslims can be shitheads too!".

 

While that's certainly true, it wouldn't be helpful in understanding the actual processes that led to the heinous act.

 

I agree 100%. Focusing on the religion of a "psycho" may help determine some of the "superficial" aspects like "who he targets" and "who he claims allegiance to" but it doesn't solve the real issue of how can a person be so disconnected. Brings us all the way back, why does it matter if a terrorist is called Muslim or not?

 

Regarding the bolded: if Muslims made up the majority of the population and wanted to keep Christians out of the country and put FBI agents in churches, I think it would get the same reaction, and rightfully so.

[The Dude]

I think it matters, yes. I think where we disagree is the idea that the ideology is superficial.

 

Obviously the ideology can go a long way in explaining why a person can so fervently belief something.

[zoogs]

 

Second, to those who don't think the constant Western drumbeat of "Destroy Radical Islam" might be interpreted as an attack on the whole of the religion, consider just for a moment the insane, widespread American belief that Christianity is under assault in this country.

 

Right, and we have no problem discussing how insane it is when it comes to Christianity. Why isn't it considered equally insane when legitimate criticisms of Islam are conflated with demonizing Muslim people as a whole? Why that double standard?

I try to make clear that I'm not going after Christians as a whole. The anti Islam folks clearly do want to go after this foreign, brown man's religion as a whole. In both cases it's a poor way to build a bridge.

 

But we aren't discussing whether belief in Allah isn't supported by physical evidence, for example. This is a straightforward attempt to a demonize Islam by asserting it is inextricably linked to radical terrorism. And that is why the push back.

 

Westbrook Baptist, IRA, and other Christian crazies don't color your view of Christianity. Why *that* double standard?

[The Dude]

Westbrook Baptist, IRA, and other Christian crazies don't color your view of Christianity. Why *that* double standard?

Not any more than ISIS colors my view Islam, anyway. So there is no double standard. I have no problem, however, recognizing the link between the crazy stuff written in the Bible and the fact that there's people who believe the crazy stuff written in the Bible. All the while realizing not every Christian believes all the crazy stuff written in the Bible.

 

But we aren't discussing whether belief in Allah isn't supported by physical evidence, for example. This is a straightforward attempt to a demonize Islam by asserting it is inextricably linked to radical terrorism. And that is why the push back.

 

But there's definitely a link, right? I wouldn't categorize it as inextricable. But it's not as if Islamic terrorists are pretending to draw ideological motivation from the Quran, the Hadith, and the example set forth by Muhammad. It's really happening.

 

I reject the notion that recognizing the link is necessarily an attempt to demonize Muslim people as whole. All the while realizing that's probably, say, Donald Trump's motivation to point out the link exists.

 

I try to make clear that I'm not going after Christians as a whole. The anti Islam folks clearly do want to go after this foreign, brown man's religion as a whole. In both cases it's a poor way to build a bridge.

 

Honesty I'm very surprised to see you paint with such broad brush yourself. Not everyone thinks in these terms. I think there has to be room for nuance. All the while realizing nuance very well may not be compatible with political discussion in 2016.