Islam's "Grey Zone"

[Danny Bateman]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12002726/The-grey-zone-How-Isis-wants-to-divide-the-world-into-Muslims-and-crusaders.html

 

This article pretty neatly sums up why I think Obama has taken the right approach in dealing in the Arab Spring and the proliferation of groups like ISIS. There have been missteps along the way like Libya, but I strongly agree with his general approach.

 

It's also why I believe hardliners likee Trump and Cruz and their ilk are completely wrong and actively making things worse. By painting with a broad brush and suggesting Islam is not compatible with the US (even temporarily), you're worsening the wedge and essentially parroting the narrative they want to promote for them.

 

Thoughts?

[funhusker]

I think the article sums up my thoughts perfectly.

 

It's why I will never understand the insistance to add the term "Islamic" in front of "Terrorist". It is a stupid line used to pander to a fearful base.

 

It's no different when someone calls Westboro Baptists a bunch of "wackos". There isn't a demand from Cruz, Trump, and others to stand up and declare "They are 'Christian' wackos!!! Why can't we man up and call them what they are?!!!"

 

I agree with Obama's stance of not letting religion become a part of 'choosing sides'. Instead, this administration has defined the sides as "civilized, peaceful, thoughful" vs. "barbaric, violent, short-sighted". There is room for Christians, Muslims, and all other people to fit into either camp. But they must choose that "side" based on their person and not their religion.

[BigRedBuster]

If everyone is honest and not trying to move conversations in ridiculous political directions or extremes like Trump or Cruz, Islamic terrorists are the correct term for groups like ISIS.

 

That doesn't mean you are talking about the vast majority of Muslims in the world or Islam as a religion. It does mean that these groups are using Islam in a way it's not intended to justify their actions.

 

That doesn't justify being mean or disrespectful to the rest of the Muslim world.

[funhusker]

It is factually correct that these groups claim to be Muslim and are using a twisted version of Islam to commit horrendous acts. I agree, it is "correct" to call them Islamic Terrorists but I also believe it is unnecessary.

 

Why give ISIS or other groups even the smallest opportunity to twist our terminology for their gain? The world knows who they are and what they stand for. The last thing America and it's allies need to do is give them the slightest validation as a "Muslim" group which could give them traction in recruiting.

[84HuskerLaw]

Why do so many liberals insist on defending the world's 2 billion Muslims? If they don't agree that terrorist's tactics and intentions and actions are a proper expression of their faith, they should be quite capable of defending themselves and their precious 'religion' . Islam is well beyond the average American's conceptualization of a 'religion' as it encompasses the social and political structures which are to govern the society. Many (most in my view) Americans are misinformed and misunderstand Muslims and their belief system. It is not an alternative or parallel religion comparable to Christianity or other widely followed religions. In addition, most Christians and Americans in general tend to want to 'live and let live' when it comes to religious beliefs and practices and even political ideologies as well. Naively, they believe that those who follow and practice Islam pose no significant threat or danger to America and its social and political system. Of course, this is simply not the case as the ascension of Islam within the United States is a clear and present danger to the Nation as its tenets and strictures require the overthrow and dismantling of our democratic form of self governance and the basic freedoms and benefits of our Constitution and way of life generally. This is NOT debatable. Far too many seem to be of the belief that the spread and growth of Islam (peacefully or not) within the western civilization and most importantly the United States is not a problem or something to be worried ab out. This is the danger of being unaware of the breadth and scope of the Muslim way of life. The ONLY acceptable way of governing society in accordance with Islamic principles is that of the fascist, dictatorial dominance of the Islamist leaders (Ayatollahs, etc). This is FUNDAMENTALLY and diametrically opposed to all things American and democratic. Freedom, fundamental human rights and dignity, civil society and peace and tranquility are clearly threatened.

[funhusker]

Why do so many liberals insist on defending the world's 2 billion Muslims? If they don't agree that terrorist's tactics and intentions and actions are a proper expression of their faith, they should be quite capable of defending themselves and their precious 'religion' . Islam is well beyond the average American's conceptualization of a 'religion' as it encompasses the social and political structures which are to govern the society. Many (most in my view) Americans are misinformed and misunderstand Muslims and their belief system. It is not an alternative or parallel religion comparable to Christianity or other widely followed religions. In addition, most Christians and Americans in general tend to want to 'live and let live' when it comes to religious beliefs and practices and even political ideologies as well. Naively, they believe that those who follow and practice Islam pose no significant threat or danger to America and its social and political system. Of course, this is simply not the case as the ascension of Islam within the United States is a clear and present danger to the Nation as its tenets and strictures require the overthrow and dismantling of our democratic form of self governance and the basic freedoms and benefits of our Constitution and way of life generally. This is NOT debatable. Far too many seem to be of the belief that the spread and growth of Islam (peacefully or not) within the western civilization and most importantly the United States is not a problem or something to be worried ab out. This is the danger of being unaware of the breadth and scope of the Muslim way of life. The ONLY acceptable way of governing society in accordance with Islamic principles is that of the fascist, dictatorial dominance of the Islamist leaders (Ayatollahs, etc). This is FUNDAMENTALLY and diametrically opposed to all things American and democratic. Freedom, fundamental human rights and dignity, civil society and peace and tranquility are clearly threatened.

Well, then we agree to disagree....

[BigRedBuster]

Well....I guess the two voices in your head won't be debating it but the rest of the world is just fine doing so.

[ZRod]

Why do so many liberals insist on defending the world's 2 billion Muslims? If they don't agree that terrorist's tactics and intentions and actions are a proper expression of their faith, they should be quite capable of defending themselves and their precious 'religion' . Islam is well beyond the average American's conceptualization of a 'religion' as it encompasses the social and political structures which are to govern the society. Many (most in my view) Americans are misinformed and misunderstand Muslims and their belief system. It is not an alternative or parallel religion comparable to Christianity or other widely followed religions. In addition, most Christians and Americans in general tend to want to 'live and let live' when it comes to religious beliefs and practices and even political ideologies as well. Naively, they believe that those who follow and practice Islam pose no significant threat or danger to America and its social and political system. Of course, this is simply not the case as the ascension of Islam within the United States is a clear and present danger to the Nation as its tenets and strictures require the overthrow and dismantling of our democratic form of self governance and the basic freedoms and benefits of our Constitution and way of life generally. This is NOT debatable. Far too many seem to be of the belief that the spread and growth of Islam (peacefully or not) within the western civilization and most importantly the United States is not a problem or something to be worried ab out. This is the danger of being unaware of the breadth and scope of the Muslim way of life. The ONLY acceptable way of governing society in accordance with Islamic principles is that of the fascist, dictatorial dominance of the Islamist leaders (Ayatollahs, etc). This is FUNDAMENTALLY and diametrically opposed to all things American and democratic. Freedom, fundamental human rights and dignity, civil society and peace and tranquility are clearly threatened.

 

Yup, that 1% of muslims who actually belive what you just said are a threat. But the other 99% I think are ok... but you're probably right. Just to be sure let's get rid of Ameer Abdullah, move Ali's funeral out of country, Kick Mike Tyson out too, Dave Chappelle needs to go. Akon, Ice Cube, T-Payne, Dr. Oz, Shaq, Fareed Zakaria get em outta here!

 

What you're saying is flat out wrong and disgusting. I live in the Detroit area which has a very large Muslim population. I passed several women in hijab and burka at the mall today (some with the full get up), I work with many Muslims daily, why didn't they slit mt throat? Why don't they over throw the local government? It's corrupt and weak here. Why would they associate with a non beliver like me? Why would they work for American run companies?

[Moiraine]

 

Why do so many liberals insist on defending the world's 2 billion Muslims? If they don't agree that terrorist's tactics and intentions and actions are a proper expression of their faith, they should be quite capable of defending themselves and their precious 'religion' . Islam is well beyond the average American's conceptualization of a 'religion' as it encompasses the social and political structures which are to govern the society. Many (most in my view) Americans are misinformed and misunderstand Muslims and their belief system. It is not an alternative or parallel religion comparable to Christianity or other widely followed religions. In addition, most Christians and Americans in general tend to want to 'live and let live' when it comes to religious beliefs and practices and even political ideologies as well. Naively, they believe that those who follow and practice Islam pose no significant threat or danger to America and its social and political system. Of course, this is simply not the case as the ascension of Islam within the United States is a clear and present danger to the Nation as its tenets and strictures require the overthrow and dismantling of our democratic form of self governance and the basic freedoms and benefits of our Constitution and way of life generally. This is NOT debatable. Far too many seem to be of the belief that the spread and growth of Islam (peacefully or not) within the western civilization and most importantly the United States is not a problem or something to be worried ab out. This is the danger of being unaware of the breadth and scope of the Muslim way of life. The ONLY acceptable way of governing society in accordance with Islamic principles is that of the fascist, dictatorial dominance of the Islamist leaders (Ayatollahs, etc). This is FUNDAMENTALLY and diametrically opposed to all things American and democratic. Freedom, fundamental human rights and dignity, civil society and peace and tranquility are clearly threatened.

Yup, that 1% of muslims who actually belive what you just said are a threat. But the other 99% I think are ok... but you're probably right. Just to be sure let's get rid of Ameer Abdullah, move Ali's funeral out of country, Kick Mike Tyson out too, Dave Chappelle needs to go. Akon, Ice Cube, T-Payne, Dr. Oz, Shaq, Fareed Zakaria get em outta here!

 

What you're saying is flat out wrong and disgusting. I live in the Detroit area which has a very large Muslim population. I passed several women in hijab and burka at the mall today (some with the full get up), I work with many Muslims daily, why didn't they slit mt throat? Why don't they over throw the local government? It's corrupt and weak here. Why would they associate with a non beliver like me? Why would they work for American run companies?

 

 

That's not even including the really important people. There are lots of Muslims getting their PhDs at UNL and other places. About 15% of my department was Muslim. Even those who don't stay in the country after graduating are doing research that benefits us.

[BigRedBuster]

It is factually correct that these groups claim to be Muslim and are using a twisted version of Islam to commit horrendous acts. I agree, it is "correct" to call them Islamic Terrorists but I also believe it is unnecessary.

 

Why give ISIS or other groups even the smallest opportunity to twist our terminology for their gain? The world knows who they are and what they stand for. The last thing America and it's allies need to do is give them the slightest validation as a "Muslim" group which could give them traction in recruiting.

 

 

If it is factually correct, then if someone so chooses to use the term Islamic terrorists then there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. Everyone in the conversation needs to caution against over reaction and fear mongering. I don't have a problem if someone chooses themselves to only say "terrorists". But, in the same view, it shouldn't be a problem if someone uses the term "Islamic Terrorists" when talking about these specific groups or people.

[funhusker]

I'm going to assume a couple things here to try and make a point, please bare with me.

 

I'm going to assume you love the Huskers since you are a valuable member here on the board. I'm going to start calling you Huskerfan BRB. All the time, no matter the conversation. You are now Huskerfan BRB

 

Lets pretend we are out tailgating, me calling you a Huskerfan is no big deal. We are with other fans. We are about to enjoy a Husker game, no big deal. The next day you treat me to lunch and I say, "Thanks Huskerfan BRB, I appreciate it". The waitress says, "oh, I didn't know you were a Husker fan. My Dad grew up in Crete..." Again no big deal.

 

Now, lets pretend I'm your business partner and we are trying to sell a deal to a bunch of Mizzou grads. Even though it is factually correct, would it be in good judgement to refer to you as Huskerfan BRB in this situation?

 

It's a silly analogy, but I'm trying to point out that there is a time and place for everything. Even though 99% of people won't bat an eye to it, why risk that 1% if it isn't needed?

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

It's a silly analogy,

You are correct with this.

 

If you are going to use that example, the correct analogy would be if there were a group of Missouri fans that were absolutely pathetically horrible and the story was on the news and it was a major topic of discussion in and out of the sports world. THEN, you and I go to Missouri to try to sell something and the subject is brought up. You then tell me...."PSSSST.....don't say they are Missouri fans because it might make someone mad" even though the entire world knows they are Missouri fans, they know they are Missouri fans and the people we are talking to know they are Missouri fans. But...hey.....who knows....if we don't say the word "Missouri" in front of "Fans", it might not offend other Missouri fans....(even though they know the bad fans are Missouri fans).

 

Fine....you don't want to use the word "Missouri" but everyone you are talking to or hears you knows you're talking about Missouri fans.

 

 

 

Also....when discussing WWII, don't ever use the word "German" with "Nazi". Because....you know....you might offend me as a person of German decent.

[NUinID]

 

 

 

It's a silly analogy,

You are correct with this.

 

If you are going to use that example, the correct analogy would be if there were a group of Missouri fans that were absolutely pathetically horrible and the story was on the news and it was a major topic of discussion in and out of the sports world. THEN, you and I go to Missouri to try to sell something and the subject is brought up. You then tell me...."PSSSST.....don't say they are Missouri fans because it might make someone mad" even though the entire world knows they are Missouri fans, they know they are Missouri fans and the people we are talking to know they are Missouri fans. But...hey.....who knows....if we don't say the word "Missouri" in front of "Fans", it might not offend other Missouri fans....(even though they know the bad fans are Missouri fans).

 

Fine....you don't want to use the word "Missouri" but everyone you are talking to or hears you knows you're talking about Missouri fans.

 

 

 

Also....when discussing WWII, don't ever use the word "German" with "Nazi". Because....you know....you might offend me as a person of German decent.

 

[funhusker]

Okay, the "Nazi" comparison is spot on.

 

People called them German Nazi's, some just called them Nazi's. But the people who cry out "Let's be real. They aren't just "Nazis" they are "German Nazis" would sound silly. It might give the impression to people like Oskar Schinder that the US will target all Germans, not just Nazi soldiers. That is what happening with the war on terror. Some call them Islamic Terrorists; some, including the Obama Administration, just call them terrorists. And people get offended because someone doesn't use a word. Its the "insistence" to categorize them as Muslim which is detrimental.

 

I'll go back to my first post and leave it at that: "I will never understand the insistence to add the term "Islamic" in front of "Terrorist"'.

[The Dude]

Coincidentally listened to this last night and opened this thread this morning.

 

Counters a lot of what has been said in this thread.