The 2020 Presidential Election - Convention & General Election

[Ratt Mhule]

1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

Would it be better if he said there's a Socialist Party....?

 

If youre acting in good faith, you know Bernie is a DEMOCRATIC socialist or a social democrat. Not socialist.  Not communist.

 

If you follow politics, you would know he is not calling for anything different than what they have in Europe, Canada and Scandinavia.  Anyone saying Venezuela, Cuba and all that nonsense knows its bulls#!t.

[TGHusker]

1 hour ago, Frott Scost said:

 

I don't know how many times we have to talk about the "extreme" left.  Its like Bernie and Warren answering the "how will you pay for it?"  And "will middle class taxes be raised" a zillion times even though they've answered it a zillion times already.

 

The "extreme" left you guys demonize so much wants to give people healthcare no matter their financial situation.  They want to give equal opportunity to people who want to get an education no matter their financial situation.  They want to stimulate the economy by canceling student debt instead of giving tax breaks to the rich and bailing out the people who caused the 2018 recession.  They want to legalize and tax marijuana and release non-violent drug offenders.  They want to reform the criminal justice system so people aren't locked up because of a profit motive.  They want to end war.  They want to make background checks on guns and end the gun show loopholes.  What part of this extreme, radical, evil plan do you disagree with?

 

You just had a moderate two posts up say he will not vote for Bernie...

Clarification needed:  I'm in Oklahoma - all 77 counties went for Trump in 2016.  My vote for a Bernie or anyone left of center won't matter. 

If I was in a state that mattered, I'd vote for any non-trumper on the Dem side - Bernie, Warren, Biden, etc (I've said many positive things about Warren on this thread and may still pull the lever for her).

1 hour ago, Frott Scost said:

 

This is why I cant take conservatives seriously most of the time.  Bunch of bad actors.

Regarding this - I think you would have read enough of my posts to know - that my mention of the Communist Party of America was an exaggeration to emphasize a point.   I do not put Bernie, Warren or anyone running in the Dem primary in the same category as the CPofA.

My emphasis is that I don't want the Dem candidate to drive moderates or undecided to Trump - period.  Maybe my hyperbole was an over stretch.    Chill

[TGHusker]

Let me add to the above - Warren and Bernie are somewhat close policy wise - not exact but on the same field.  I'd chose Warren over Bernie because of age, health and I think it is time to have some besides an old guy in the WH.  I think she is less of a lightning rod than Bernie and would therefore do a better job of pulling us together.  IMHO.   I do think both have valid arguments for their positions. 

[Ratt Mhule]

4 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Clarification needed:  I'm in Oklahoma - all 77 counties went for Trump in 2016.  My vote for a Bernie or anyone left of center won't matter. 

If I was in a state that mattered, I'd vote for any non-trumper on the Dem side - Bernie, Warren, Biden, etc (I've said many positive things about Warren on this thread and may still pull the lever for her).

Regarding this - I think you would have read enough of my posts to know - that my mention of the Communist Party of America was an exaggeration to emphasize a point.   I do not put Bernie, Warren or anyone running in the Dem primary in the same category as the CPofA.

My emphasis is that I don't want the Dem candidate to drive moderates or undecided to Trump - period.  Maybe my hyperbole was an over stretch.    Chill

 

Thank you for clarification.  I enjoy back and forth about policy and why I agree or disagree with a certain policy proposal.  If everyone acted in good faith even if they disagree, we could get somewhere.  The thing that annoys me is people on the right calling people on the left un-American, or communist, or socialist or all those other names that are nonsense.  Not saying you have before this one post.  We all want what is best for this country and some believe taking a page out of Europe's, Canada's, and Scandinavia's book on things they do better than us is the way to get there.  When Bernie starts talking about the govt. taking over Nike (actual socialism) then I will say enough is enough. 

[TGHusker]

52 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

Dear god do I pull an Incredible Hulk move when I see someone say they're unhappy with Trump and would potentially abstain in 2020.

Again - I will clarify -  I'm in OKLA - my anti Trump vote won't matter.  I will probably not abstain when it comes down to it since I take my privilege to vote seriously.  So I'll have to make the choice on how I want to  'spend' my anti-trump vote:

1. Vote for the 3rd party candidate - Libertarian or other - who may be closer to center

2. Just pull the lever for the Dem moderate or not.

[NM11046]

4 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Again - I will clarify -  I'm in OKLA - my anti Trump vote won't matter.  I will probably not abstain when it comes down to it since I take my privilege to vote seriously.  So I'll have to make the choice on how I want to  'spend' my anti-trump vote:

1. Vote for the 3rd party candidate - Libertarian or other - who may be closer to center

2. Just pull the lever for the Dem moderate or not.

Thank you - I didn't want to have to put you on my list of "people who are too stubborn or ignorant to see the big picture".

 

I really don't think we're going to get Bernie anyway, if that gives you any comfort.

[teachercd]

I know some of you would not watch certain videos "even if you paid them" but I want you to ALL KNOW right now that I will watch ANY video (2 girls 1 cup even) if you are willing to pay me.  I will be glad to give you my Venmo.

[TGHusker]

2 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

 

Thank you for clarification.  I enjoy back and forth about policy and why I agree or disagree with a certain policy proposal.  If everyone acted in good faith even if they disagree, we could get somewhere.  The thing that annoys me is people on the right calling people on the left un-American, or communist, or socialist or all those other names that are nonsense.  Not saying you have before this one post.  We all want what is best for this country and some believe taking a page out of Europe's, Canada's, and Scandinavia's book on things they do better than us is the way to get there.  When Bernie starts talking about the govt. taking over Nike (actual socialism) then I will say enough is enough. 

Ok - let's find the common ground.   I've said many times in my posts the following:  "We all want what is right for America, we just have different ways of getting there."  Sometimes conservative ideas need to be tried and sometimes liberal ideas - or moderate- in between ideas.  We've seen this throughout our history.   Those on the right who say those on the left are un-American - don't understand or know America and/or the reason for its founding. 

I'm recognizing these facts:  It is time the USA spends less money on foreign wars, etc and more time taking care of its own people, building a true safety net, and fixing our own infrastructure.  I don't care what label comes with that recognition but if we don't care for our own,  and especially "the least of these' we've lost the heart of what it means to be an American (and for that mater a Christian- for all of those Trump loving evangelicals who turn a blind ear to trump's hate speech towards 'outsiders').

[TGHusker]

6 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

Thank you - I didn't want to have to put you on my list of "people who are too stubborn or ignorant to see the big picture".

 

I really don't think we're going to get Bernie anyway, if that gives you any comfort.

Comfort or not -   I'll be comforted when I see Trump out of the WH - regardless of who replaces him. 

Big picture - Yes I prefer center right policy but America is too big and has too much history  that we can't overcome a blunder by almost anyone we could place in the WH.  In 2008 many thought Obama was the end of the America and today many of us who thought that would like to have Obama back in the WH compared to Trump.  So policy over reach - either left or right can be overcome. We've done it many times before - the pendulum swings both ways over time.   However, having a Putin Puppet in the WH could do irreparable damage for many many years and decades and it creates a cancer in our politics that is difficult to eradicate. 

[BigRedBuster]

54 minutes ago, Frott Scost said:

The thing that annoys me is people on the right calling people on the left un-American, or communist, or socialist or all those other names that are nonsense. 

 

The ones I scratched off are over the top. 

However, Bernie himself has said he's a socialist.  He's even said this without the "Democratic" word in front of it.  Now, maybe he means it to always have those two words together.  But, it's reasonable to understand why people call him a socialist.  

[Guy Chamberlin]

Here's the trick: when turnout is high, Democrats win. When turnout is low, Republicans win. 

 

Turnout can be a combination of enthusiasm and fear. In 2016, Bernie Sanders was bringing in lots of young voters, typical non-voters and abstainers generally skeptical of the whole process, and people who suddenly realized they didn't have to vote for Hillary Clinton. That was enthusiasm. Grassroots stuff. Viral stuff that took the DNC crowd totally by surprise. Moderates and the donor class considered Hillary Clinton's nomination destiny, and they felt it was more important to lure a few moderate Republicans from Trump than appease the influx of progressives that they considered interlopers, possibly dangerous to the brand. 

 

That was fear. Combined with the legitimate fear of Donald Trump, it seemed like enough. But in their dark, private moments, millions of Americans simply didn't like Hillary Clinton. Just as they couldn't get excited about centrist war hero John Kerry. Compromise and moderation tend to be the enemy of enthusiasm. 

 

But here's what drives me crazy. Progressives are being treated like the far left when they should be treated like populists. Crazy socialist ideas, with no idea how to pay for them? No. Just the opposite. In poll after poll, a clear majority of Americans favor progressive policies when they are explained to them minus the coded buzzwords. The part we tend to forget is that the "center" of American politics -- which favors the pre-Trump status quo -- is far more insane. How are we currently paying for healthcare? It's insane. How far has American education fallen? It's insane. Our defense budget and all its pork barrels? Insane. Tax burden? f#&%ing nuts. The war on science? Literally insane. How are our precious and vulnerable jobs providers spending their tax breaks? On outsourcing, robotics, lobbying, and executive compensation. Insane. 

 

Nebraska used to pride itself on populism. That was never a clear liberal or conservative distinction. It simply meant that you didn't trust the handful of people getting rich by influencing public policy, and used your vastly superior numbers to let them know it's still your country. I don't think I've every heard a national politician speak to that core sense of justice and common sense like Bernie Sanders. How so many of my fellow Nebraskans turned off their bulls#!t detectors and fell for an elitist narcissistic New York con man is one of the saddest things I've seen in my lifetime.

[BigRedBuster]

43 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Here's the trick: when turnout is high, Democrats win. When turnout is low, Republicans win. 

 

Turnout can be a combination of enthusiasm and fear. In 2016, Bernie Sanders was bringing in lots of young voters, typical non-voters and abstainers generally skeptical of the whole process, and people who suddenly realized they didn't have to vote for Hillary Clinton. That was enthusiasm. Grassroots stuff. Viral stuff that took the DNC crowd totally by surprise. Moderates and the donor class considered Hillary Clinton's nomination destiny, and they felt it was more important to lure a few moderate Republicans from Trump than appease the influx of progressives that they considered interlopers, possibly dangerous to the brand. 

 

That was fear. Combined with the legitimate fear of Donald Trump, it seemed like enough. But in their dark, private moments, millions of Americans simply didn't like Hillary Clinton. Just as they couldn't get excited about centrist war hero John Kerry. Compromise and moderation tend to be the enemy of enthusiasm. 

 

But here's what drives me crazy. Progressives are being treated like the far left when they should be treated like populists. Crazy socialist ideas, with no idea how to pay for them? No. Just the opposite. In poll after poll, a clear majority of Americans favor progressive policies when they are explained to them minus the coded buzzwords. The part we tend to forget is that the "center" of American politics -- which favors the pre-Trump status quo -- is far more insane. How are we currently paying for healthcare? It's insane. How far has American education fallen? It's insane. Our defense budget and all its pork barrels? Insane. Tax burden? f#&%ing nuts. The war on science? Literally insane. How are our precious and vulnerable jobs providers spending their tax breaks? On outsourcing, robotics, lobbying, and executive compensation. Insane. 

 

Nebraska used to pride itself on populism. That was never a clear liberal or conservative distinction. It simply meant that you didn't trust the handful of people getting rich by influencing public policy, and used your vastly superior numbers to let them know it's still your country. I don't think I've every heard a national politician speak to that core sense of justice and common sense like Bernie Sanders. How so many of my fellow Nebraskans turned off their bulls#!t detectors and fell for an elitist narcissistic New York con man is one of the saddest things I've seen in my lifetime.

The problem, at least for me, is that being an independent person, I can pick and choose which policies I like.  I honestly don't think you can lump me into any group with a label.  So, while I am in favor of major changes to our healthcare system which could include MCA...I don't agree with Bernie on his attitude towards "billionaires shouldn't exist" and a wealth tax...as an example.  While I do believe our tax system should be reinvented so that the wealthy are paying an appropriate amount, I'm not comfortable with the rhetoric about it coming from people like Bernie.  I completely agree that the cost of college education needs to be fixed.  But, I don't support free college for everyone.   On the flip side, I am all in favor of the smallest government possible.  However, I don't agree with the extreme right that all government is bad.  While I do consider myself a capitalist, I understand that there have always been parts of our society that is socialistic (roads, military, police, schools...etc.) and that is good.  While I support the thought of as low of taxes as possible, I firmly understand that the government has to function and pay it's bills.  While I fully understand that a developed society should have safety nets to take care of people who can't take care of themselves, I firmly believe there is a HUGE amount of waste and corruption in the system that should be limited as much as possible.  While I fully understand we need to take care of people who can't take care of themselves, I also believe we shouldn't promote dependence on government.

 

So....While I support some things that candidates like Bernie and Warren support, I also support things that people on the right support.  It makes me puke that I have to vote for someone that is all in one direction and demonizes the other side so much that there can't be common ground found.

[Ratt Mhule]

14 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

The problem, at least for me, is that being an independent person, I can pick and choose which policies I like.  I honestly don't think you can lump me into any group with a label.  So, while I am in favor of major changes to our healthcare system which could include MCA...I don't agree with Bernie on his attitude towards "billionaires shouldn't exist" and a wealth tax...as an example.  While I do believe our tax system should be reinvented so that the wealthy are paying an appropriate amount, I'm not comfortable with the rhetoric about it coming from people like Bernie.  I completely agree that the cost of college education needs to be fixed.  But, I don't support free college for everyone.   On the flip side, I am all in favor of the smallest government possible.  However, I don't agree with the extreme right that all government is bad.  While I do consider myself a capitalist, I understand that there have always been parts of our society that is socialistic (roads, military, police, schools...etc.) and that is good.  While I support the thought of as low of taxes as possible, I firmly understand that the government has to function and pay it's bills.  While I fully understand that a developed society should have safety nets to take care of people who can't take care of themselves, I firmly believe there is a HUGE amount of waste and corruption in the system that should be limited as much as possible.  While I fully understand we need to take care of people who can't take care of themselves, I also believe we shouldn't promote dependence on government.

 

So....While I support some things that candidates like Bernie and Warren support, I also support things that people on the right support.  It makes me puke that I have to vote for someone that is all in one direction and demonizes the other side so much that there can't be common ground found.

 

This is reasonable and understandable.  The only thing Ill push back a little on is he wants public and community college to be free tuition free.  Lots of people, especially rich people send their kids to private colleges.

[funhusker]

I'd like "free" college to be part of an infrastructure bill and or a government service program.

 

If we are going to rebuild and improve our systems I think it makes sense to increase the number of welders, electricians, engineers, etc.  I'd also be okay if a person's accounting degree is paid for after they've served 10 years in a government position that used that education.  

 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

32 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

The problem, at least for me, is that being an independent person, I can pick and choose which policies I like.  I honestly don't think you can lump me into any group with a label.  

 

Well that's a problem for everybody. We have a two party system, each with a platform that not everyone in the party agrees on, and policies the Party won't necessarily fight for if elected. Compromise and course changes are supposed to be baked into the checks and balances.

 

At this point -- a point where Ronald Reagan would be viewed as a squishy moderate by the GOP — we need a strong progressive push merely to get back to center. I think we're ready to talk about ambitious new directions in healthcare, education and tax structure, just to see where they lead. 

 

And remember, the wealth taxes proposed by both Warren and Sanders do not mean putting an end to billionaires. Billionaires will continue to live exceptionally, and the taxes are not nearly as high as they were under Eisenhower, back when America was presumably Great.  The fact that hardworking Americans worry about a War On Billionaires only shows how messed up the messaging has gotten.