House Majority Whip Steve Scalise shot in Virginia

[zoogs]

"The 1st Amendment, however, will be the far more effective tool. In fact, it's the only tool we have that can successfully overthrow our government."

 

Well said.

 

--@BRB: I don't think it takes a person with mental issues to do this at all. That's also too easy a bow to tie on the story. The narrative that only abnormally functioning people commit crimes like this is convenient and self-serving. (Stigma regarding the mentally ill is also important, and I don't mean to take away from that topic here...)

 

But yeah, we can't wash our hands and say it's just the crazies and well, what can you do about them. The people who do stuff like this are radicals, backed into corners by the storytelling they imbibe or desperation of circumstance. "Normal" Americans can and will continue to fall to the same wayside. Thus, it's worth talking about how to combat it.

[Moiraine]

This was absolutely wrong.

 

But what LOMS said isn't wrong either.

 

If you have a tyrannical government, let's say North Koreas, having the right to bear arms is important. If they ever do manage to uprise, they need weapons.

 

That isn't the situation here which is why it's just someone mentally ill, but that is what the 2nd ammendment is for, imo. They had government oppression in mind. And I think it's what the gun lobby pretends they have in mind. In reality they just want to sell lots of guns.

[JJ Husker]

My goodness there are some strange interpretations of how to protect from a tyrannical government going on in here.

I picture something like the Revolutionary war when I think of it.

Lone gunmen gunning down congressmen on a ball field seems to be severely twisting the sensible intent for a certain agenda.

[zoogs]

I think like knapp said though, the issue is we're FAR past a world where citizens bearing arms can resist the government. They've got satellites and F-22s. Game over. Hence, even in the general case, our only tools are free speech and civic education.

 

ED -- assassinations are often the work of revolutionaries fighting against their rulers. Is there a rosier version of a Revolutionary war-style uprising where the rebels refuse to try to take out any high-ranking officials of the government they're trying to bring down?

[BigRedBuster]

"The 1st Amendment, however, will be the far more effective tool. In fact, it's the only tool we have that can successfully overthrow our government."

 

Well said.

 

--@BRB: I don't think it takes a person with mental issues to do this at all. That's also too easy a bow to tie on the story. The narrative that only abnormally functioning people commit crimes like this is convenient and self-serving. (Stigma regarding the mentally ill is also important, and I don't mean to take away from that topic here...)

 

But yeah, we can't wash our hands and say it's just the crazies and well, what can you do about them. The people who do stuff like this are radicals, backed into corners by the storytelling they imbibe or desperation of circumstance. "Normal" Americans can and will continue to fall to the same wayside. Thus, it's worth talking about how to combat it.

We HAVE to talk about how to combat it and saying someone who does this has mental issues isn't using it as a scape goat.

 

If this guy would have survived this, he should have had the total power of the law thrown at him to lock him away for a long time without some insanity plea.

 

However, people with normal mental capabilities don't all of a sudden decide to take a rifle and go shoot congressmen practicing softball. There is obviously something out of whack within this guy that allowed him to cling to words and propaganda that convinced him this is what he needed to do.

[zoogs]

I think it's more helpful to realize there's not that much separation. The way we want to respond to all heinous crime is to separate the perpetrator from ourselves as far as possible. To agree that there's just something out of whack with the guy by definition solves the question. We want that easy answer. It's not that easy.

[Huskerzoo]

Good Lord....I know most people with mental illnesses are not violent. Stop with the correcting of statements on this.

 

But, someone that does this and thinks this is an appropriate action has serious mental issues upstairs and the rhetoric going back and forth influences people like that to do things they shouldn't.

 

So....yes...the vast majority of mentally ill people are not violent. But, it would take a person with mental issues to do this.

 

 

 

That is....unless you think this is a normal American who just woke up and decided to go protect America.

 

I won't. What you're saying is harmful and blatantly false. People diagnosed with mental illness have enough problems without any added nonsense brought about by other people. The stigma that's associated with mental health makes my job awful. People can't engage with treatment because they are understandably worried that people will over-react. That they will be shunned, feared, etc. That is because of people like you.

 

It is ignorant to say that only individuals diagnosed with mental illness commit acts of mass violence. He may not have thought that this was an appropriate action, we really don't know. It may have been he was willing to take one for the team and the collateral damage was worth while. I'd also invite you to understand different diagnoses and what they mean.

 

All of the evidence available say this was premeditated, so no, I don't think he woke up and went out to protect America.

 

Having faulty beliefs and a willingness to commit violence to address them is not akin to psychopathology. While I think that we should not be debating what I'm about to say because it's more important to not turn things political and recognize human life is more than political grand standing, I'm going to say it anyways. If an individual from Saudi Arabia did this, what would we call it?

[BigRedBuster]

Of course it's not that easy and I'm not saying it is.

 

But, a million people can listen to the same propaganda over and over and over again. 999,999 will still understand going out and shooting congressmen in a park is wrong. One will believe his duty is to go shoot the congressmen in the park. You don't think there is something different mentally with that one person than the other 999,999???

Now, those people will always be there in the crowd. What the discussion (in this situation) needs to be, is how do we reduce the propaganda that is put out that convinces people like him to do what he did? And.....when is there a way to identify someone like this prior to him acting and, if we can......what do we do about it?

[Landlord]

Saying this guy for sure has a mental illness is inappropriate and unfounded. He could be completely mentally healthy, but brainwashed by a fanatical ideology. There are plenty of scenarios where this guy is not 'mentally ill', but just severely misguided.

 

Talking about mental illness is important, but in situations like this, not using mental illness as a convenient explanation that wraps everything up nice with a bow is more important.

[BigRedBuster]

OK...the guy was perfectly normal.

 

Yep...normal people go out and shoot congressmen in a park.

[Landlord]

OK...the guy was perfectly normal.

 

Yep...normal people go out and shoot congressmen in a park.

 

 

Nobody said that he was perfectly normal.

 

Life doesn't work in the binary paradigm you are presenting.

[zoogs]

He was a terrorist.

 

A freedom fighter, to some.

[Huskerzoo]

 

"The 1st Amendment, however, will be the far more effective tool. In fact, it's the only tool we have that can successfully overthrow our government."

 

Well said.

 

--@BRB: I don't think it takes a person with mental issues to do this at all. That's also too easy a bow to tie on the story. The narrative that only abnormally functioning people commit crimes like this is convenient and self-serving. (Stigma regarding the mentally ill is also important, and I don't mean to take away from that topic here...)

 

But yeah, we can't wash our hands and say it's just the crazies and well, what can you do about them. The people who do stuff like this are radicals, backed into corners by the storytelling they imbibe or desperation of circumstance. "Normal" Americans can and will continue to fall to the same wayside. Thus, it's worth talking about how to combat it.

We HAVE to talk about how to combat it and saying someone who does this has mental issues isn't using it as a scape goat.

 

If this guy would have survived this, he should have had the total power of the law thrown at him to lock him away for a long time without some insanity plea.

 

However, people with normal mental capabilities don't all of a sudden decide to take a rifle and go shoot congressmen practicing softball. There is obviously something out of whack within this guy that allowed him to cling to words and propaganda that convinced him this is what he needed to do.

 

 

http://www.bfskinner.org/newtestsite/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ScienceHumanBehavior.pdf PDF download. It's just behavior. It's verbal behavior, but it's just behavior.

[BigRedBuster]

 

OK...the guy was perfectly normal.

 

Yep...normal people go out and shoot congressmen in a park.

 

 

Nobody said that he was perfectly normal.

 

Life doesn't work in the binary paradigm you are presenting.

 

Wait....you're now going to offend.....not normal people.

[zoogs]

Zoo is making critical points that should not be missed.