Star Wars: Episode VIII ***Speculation & Spoilers***

[Redux]

Okay, but you really didn't see all of us defending it?  Really?

 

I'm not going to try to change your mind, you were never going to like it.

[knapplc]

11 minutes ago, Redux said:

you were never going to like it.

 

 

Haven't you ever gone to a movie you expected to like and not liked it?  

[Landlord]

48 minutes ago, knapplc said:

There's been a lot of time spent in this thread parsing the words I'm saying, and almost zero defense of the merits of the movie itself. 

 

 

I think it's great. If it wasn't Star Wars would I think so? That's a non-sequiter - it being Star Wars, and my understanding of and relationship with that, influences everything about it. I don't pretend to be able to analyze it in a vacuum, but from my perspective it's a refreshingly new take that I was very entertained by and was surprised was allowed to exist as is.

 

• It's the first Star Wars movie to even attempt to dive into more nuance and complexity of characters other than "good" and "bad". It actually set up areas of grey in all 4 of the main characters.

 

• It lost it's footing a bit, but did at least strive to tell a different sort of story - a story about how your actions determine your valor more than your bloodline. About letting go of the past and looking ahead to the hope of the future.

 

• It had some absolutely amazing action set pieces. I still can't get over how cool, raw and powerful the lightsabers are in the new films.

 

• It had the second best cinematography of any Star Wars movie behind Rogue One. 

 

• Kylo Ren is probably the most intriguing antagonist we've seen in Star Wars. Certainly doesn't have the mythos of a Darth Vader, but a self-absorbed villain is infinitely more interesting than an inherently evil one. 

 

• When's the last time a major trilogy killed off the bad guy halfway through? Bold choice, and despite legitimate frustrations about not knowing anything about Snoke, that's a bold choice for the story. Where TFA was safe, this is audacious and steps away from the franchise more than any other movie has. It turns a lot of things on their heads, and does it thoughtfully. Even if people aren't into it, it's an attempt worth respecting.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Landlord

[knapplc]

I agree fully or mostly with each of those bullets, actually. 

 

 

[Making Chimichangas]

51 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Grasping at what?  Why would there be a need to "grasp" at anything?  It's a bad movie, I've (partially) explained why, nothing said has dissuaded me from that opinion. 

 

It's not like you can argue me into liking a bad movie. It's either good or bad. 

 

It can be both depending your stance.  Many here love this movie and think it is terrific, while you and a few others aren't so enamored with it--which is fine.

 

For me, and many others, the positives and what we liked, far and away out-weigh the negatives.

 

Going to see it again in a couple hours.  I'll Force Project the movie to @knapplc so he can see it again.   

Edited December 20, 2017 by Making Chimichangas

[zoogs]

Hey, it's not for everyone! I'm sorry if you didn't like it, but I guess there are other movies for you to like. We all respond to things differently and for different reasons. I'm happy to adore just about everything about this film.

 

Here's another review that I read and nodded along to. They make so many of the points I agree with, and a minor quibble I'd have is that it wasn't that sharp of a left turn from TFA. When I saw TFA, one of the reasons it filled me with such unbridled joy was how it seemed like it was setting up exactly what TLJ delivered. But I could scarcely believe it at the time. Two years ago when I was gushing about the possibility that Rey was going to be a proper hero, not "Look guys, we have a female protagonist, but her big twist is going to be that she's the daughter of some famous dude from the originals", I wasn't at all sure that was where they were going, for example.

 

Also, I'm really happy with how they handled both Han and Luke. I didn't have any predictions (especially for Luke), but here's a great thread about the wrenching portrayal of Han in Ep.7: 

 

That was exactly my take after TFA, and with Luke it makes a lot of sense, too. Not only that, it leaves Leia -- most famous originally for being a slave bikini-clad sex symbol, a slightly less-conventional damsel in distress, sister of the hero/Jedi backup plan and crowd favorite flyboy Han's Princess prize ... as the strongest member of the original trio in the long view. Luke was left alone to try and reconstruct the Jedi order, made a serious error, and was shattered (this strengthens, not demeans his character, in my view, and as Yoda points out in the end. Having Luke come to that realization only now is part practical; no movies were made until now, and partly just gave him a meaningful arc for the new trilogy. May the Force be with you, Luke! ;)). Han, as described here, lost his son and marriage and ended up an increasingly desperate smuggler with fewer and fewer places to turn.

 

Leia, though? She wasn't the protagonist of either trilogy, but clearly she emerged after RoTJ to take the reins and not let up. Through tragedy, loss, and everything...Luke may have gained legend status, but Leia was the badass who commanded the Resistance with authority for the next twenty years. It was also as good a way to handle her character as I could have imagined. They've expertly handed off the baton after these two episodes, and having set it up, it's so wide open where the last one will go. Well done.

 

[Redux]

2 hours ago, knapplc said:

Haven't you ever gone to a movie you expected to like and not liked it?  

 

Honestly nothing really comes to mind.  I don't see a lot of movies in the theatre though.

[knapplc]

Just now, Redux said:

 

Honestly nothing really comes to mind.  I don't see a lot of movies in the theatre though.

 

Nothing has ever fallen short of your expectations?  That's an amazingly lucky life to have lived!

 

But you do understand the concept, though, even if it has never happened to you, yes? 

 

So it's not fair to say, "you were never going to like it" when I went into the movie with every intention and hope of liking it.  But sometimes things we think and hope will be good (food, football teams, music, movies, etc) aren't.  And it's not unfair to say you're disappointed when they turn out to be bad.

 

I mean, I bought my season tickets to Husker Football this year hoping that we'd be more the team that won seven straight to start last season than the team that foundered through 2015. I was disappointed, and (rightly) I stated that the football team was bad this year.  Because it was bad. 

 

Surely that's an understandable parallel?

[VectorVictor]

32 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

Honestly nothing really comes to mind. 

 

Did you happen to see Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Martha? That one was a pretty disappointing jaunt...

Edited December 20, 2017 by VectorVictor

[Redux]

35 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Nothing has ever fallen short of your expectations?  That's an amazingly lucky life to have lived!

 

But you do understand the concept, though, even if it has never happened to you, yes? 

 

So it's not fair to say, "you were never going to like it" when I went into the movie with every intention and hope of liking it.  But sometimes things we think and hope will be good (food, football teams, music, movies, etc) aren't.  And it's not unfair to say you're disappointed when they turn out to be bad.

 

I mean, I bought my season tickets to Husker Football this year hoping that we'd be more the team that won seven straight to start last season than the team that foundered through 2015. I was disappointed, and (rightly) I stated that the football team was bad this year.  Because it was bad. 

 

Surely that's an understandable parallel?

 

I understand 100% what you are saying.  I merely said you were never going to like it based off your dislike of TFA.  And as I have mentioned, I think TLJ has a good chunk if things that are either unecessary or flat out stupid.  Where you and I differ is I didn't let that ruin it for me.  I guess you hold this franchise to a higher standard where as I came to grips a long time ago that every movie in this franchise has major problems that keep them from being perfect, some more than others.  As a whole movie and a standalone film, it's a really good SciFi movie.  As an entry into Star Wars, it's a pretty good movie.  You think it's bad and nobody is going to change your mind on that, I just think you're judging it in a much different light than you should.

[knapplc]

That's fair. I was jarred out of the moment by several things (which I won't rehash here) and think that Disney could have done a far, far better job on this movie than they did.  I can understand why it wouldn't for some people, and it's cool that people liked it. There were definitely likable parts. 

[Redux]

1 hour ago, VectorVictor said:

 

Did you happen to see Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Martha? That one was a pretty disappointing jaunt...

 

I watched it on a movie channel, I didn't expect much going in therefore wasn't really let down when it was boring.

 

To knapp's points I understand why he was let down.  I liken it to my viewing of S. Dardko, if anyone is familiar with this trainwreck you know why I was let down.  The original Donnie Darko is, in my opinion, a masterpiece.  The story is so compelling, the characters are believable, the musical score is almost haunting and it is a film that stays with you.  That's why when I found out a "sequel" was to be made, I was already hating it.  I knew it would be a cluster of nonsensical plot lines, stupid call backs and half assed storytelling.  Boy was I right.  Now, had I never seen Donnie Darko, maybe I would have mildly enjoyed it as an interesting movie if nothing else.  But since I love the original, this film is unforgivable in my eye.  It swings and misses at almost every turn and insists on making plot holes.  I said going in "I'm probably going to hate it".  So, I was never going to like it.

[NUinID]

1 hour ago, VectorVictor said:

 

Did you happen to see Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Martha? That one was a pretty disappointing jaunt...

 

I actually just watched this about a month ago when we were getting free HBO.  I had heard so many bad things about it that I didn't expect much.  It wasn't too bad, it wasn't great, but it was a lot better than what some were saying about it.  It was better than Suicide Squad.  

[NUinID]

2 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

Nothing has ever fallen short of your expectations? 

 

 

Dunkirk fell short of my expectations.  It was the movie I was looking forward to the most this summer.  I didn't like it as much as I wanted to, but I didn't hate it.  It was just completely different than I was expecting. I didn't care for the way Chris Nolan did it, and I know that is what most people liked about it. It is still a big difference between it not meeting my expectations and saying it is a bad movie.  

[knapplc]

58 minutes ago, Redux said:

I said going in "I'm probably going to hate it".

 

But just so we're clear, while this may have been your mindset for that movie, that was 100% not my mindset going into TLJ. 

1 minute ago, NUinID said:

 

Dunkirk fell short of my expectations.  It was the movie I was looking forward to the most this summer.  I didn't like it as much as I wanted to, but I didn't hate it.  It was just completely different than I was expecting. I didn't care for the way Chris Nolan did it, and I know that is what most people liked about it. It is still a big difference between it not meeting my expectations and saying it is a bad movie.  

 

Why would anyone care if I said TLJ is a bad movie?