Creationist - Evolution Belief spectrum

[Big Red 40]

I honestly know nothing about what they believe. Reading the Koran is on my list just to see what its all about. 

[Kiyoat Husker]

16 minutes ago, funhusker said:

Muslims have the same Book of Genesis, if that's the question. 

 

That's not technically true.  According to wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

The Islamic creation story is scattered through several books, rather than in one place, like Genesis.  The story is very similar, though, and obviously evolved from the same source.  Here is something I found very interesting:

 

Quote

 

According to the Qur'an, the skies and the earth were joined together as one "unit of creation", after which they were "cloven asunder".[12] After the parting of both, they simultaneously came into their present shape after going through a phase when they were smoke-like.[13] Some parts of the Qur'an state that the process of creation took 6 days,[14] Other parts provide detail about creation. 2 days to create the Earth,[15] 2 days to create the mountains, to bless the Earth and to measure its sustenance, total 4 days,[16][17] and then 2 more days to create the heavens and the stars.[18] In the Quran, the word "day" is used loosely to mean era, for example Surah 70 verse 4: "The angels and spirit will ascend to Him during a day the extent of which is fifty thousand years"

[...]

 Traditionally, the earth is held to be inhabited by several other creatures, like the Jinn, before God created humanity.

 

 

So, a "day" in the Qur'an can literally mean an era of thousands of years, The earth went through a gaseous phase before forming into a planet, and the earth was inhabited by other creatures before man was created.

 

Sounds a lot like how we now understand planet formation and early Hominids, at least to my biased mind.

[Landlord]

2 hours ago, Big Red 40 said:

Its been 25+ years since i've regularly attended church and i can see that mentality now. It wasn't that way at any church i went  to "back in the day".  Strict bible based solutions were the answer to any question.

 

 

I would definitely recommend reading through this. It's incredibly insightful as a peak into the historical/literary/cultural context of Genesis.

 

https://personal.evangel.edu/badgers/Web/AGTS_Genesis_Science/Waltke_Crux_Genre_Genesis.pdf

[The Dude]

11 hours ago, Big Red 40 said:

I honestly know nothing about what they believe. Reading the Koran is on my list just to see what its all about. 

I read it in about 3 days.  It's not nearly as daunting as reading the bible.

 

[JJ Husker]

16 hours ago, Nebfanatic said:

Science is essentially human understanding. To me the big bang and evolution is the human understanding of the spiritual event known as creation. 

 

^^^ This.

[TGHusker]

I'm thinking more and more that there is design in our universe - thus an ultimate Designer behind it.  When we look at macro issues like how the universe operates and planets and stars related to each other (See the Privilege Planet book) or we look at micro issues of how each cell of our body is its own unique 'factory' - one sees design and functionality everywhere.  I believe the Biblical story of creation is a general way of explaining that  and that days are 'periods of time' epochs if you will.  So, I believe in Intelligent Design but it taking place over time.  I don't believe that the Bible and Science are in opposition as is so often painted.  Now, one's interpretation of the Bible may oppose science.  There have been religious leaders in the past who believe the earth was the center and the sun rotated around it.  Then science proves it otherwise.  However there are Bible verses that speak of the earth going around the sun in confirmation of science.  The Bible doesn't present itself as a science text but as a love story between God and Man and God's pursuit of man. God reveals what he chooses to reveal - we see through a glass dimly.  But it isn't just the theologian who sees through the glass dimly. The scientist also - moving from one theory to another to a final conclusion as more understanding is gained.  Personally, I believe that God grants us a revelation of truth - science being one - that evolves over time for the carrying out of his purposes at that time.  If I believe in God, and I do, and I believe in science, and I do - I therefore must believe in the ongoing revelation of truth - for as someone said "All Truth is God's Truth".  My understanding and interpretation may have to adjust according to the on going revelation. 

[Big Red 40]

Any more thoughts from those who believe in an afterlife ? I believed the heaven for believers / hell for the nonbelievers doctrine for a long time . The thought of a loving God sending billions of non believers to an eternity in hell didn’t sit well with me though . To me all this needs to mean something and I believe we have a soul . Beliefs on what happens to the souls when the physical body expires? 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Big Red 40

[Landlord]

49 minutes ago, Big Red 40 said:

Any more thoughts from those who believe in an afterlife ? I believed the heaven for believers / hell for the nonbelievers doctrine for a long time . The thought of a loving God sending billions of non believers to an eternity in hell didn’t sit well with me though . To me all this needs to mean something and I believe we have a soul . Beliefs on what happens to the souls when the physical body expires? 

 

 

I'm a hopeful Christian universalist, a likely annihilationist, and also not terribly concerned with it either way. All of the prophets and the teachings of OT Judaism and the gospels of Jesus are focused on this life. Manifesting god's kingdom here on earth. Losing your life to find true living. Loving god and loving your neighbor.

[NM11046]

1 hour ago, Big Red 40 said:

Any more thoughts from those who believe in an afterlife ? I believed the heaven for believers / hell for the nonbelievers doctrine for a long time . The thought of a loving God sending billions of non believers to an eternity in hell didn’t sit well with me though . To me all this needs to mean something and I believe we have a soul . Beliefs on what happens to the souls when the physical body expires? 

After spending my youth and adolescence thinking pretty much the best I could do is purgatory (which to me sounds worse than hell) I'm in the "no afterlife" camp.    Do good and get your rewards (or punishment) here on earth.  I'm enjoying learning about how you all think though.  

[TGHusker]

I believe in heaven and an afterlife for all.  I think the 'hell' will be separation from God - the hell torment being the forever 'lostness' of separation from God.  I understand and am tempted to believe in universalism because of one attribute of God that is always highlighted is His love.  Yet I understand that love involves choice. Love doesn't force someone to love them. If a person chooses not to love God he has separated himself from God.  This separation will continue into eternity.  At the same time I believe in God's holiness and that none of us are good enough to be in his presence for eternity outside of forgiveness through Christ.  Ultimately, I believe in God's grace - which tells me it is not for me to judge who is in what 'camp'.  God looks on the heart and our words often betray what are heart speaks in silence.  Grace trumps doctrine - doctrine is just our way of finding our spiritual 'feet'.  I think many of us may have 'wrong'' heads(including and esp me)  but 'right' hearts and I suspect heaven will be more 'crowded' then many expect due to God's grace.

[Moiraine]

I just hope in heaven I can read the last 3 books of The Wheel of Time as they were meant to be written.

[Kiyoat Husker]

 

16 hours ago, Landlord said:

I'm a hopeful Christian universalist,...

 

3 hours ago, TGHusker said:

...  I understand and am tempted to believe in universalism because of one attribute of God that is always highlighted is His love.  Yet I understand that love involves choice....

 

I have always been fascinated with the Unitarian Universalist Church, but have not researched it fully.  This is how I understand it:

 

There are Unitarian Christians (believe in one god, not the trinity), Universalist Christians (believe in non-exclusive salvation, all humans will reunite with God after death, no hell), and then there is the Unitarian Universalist Church (open to diverse belief systems and religious traditions).

 

While I will probably always stay ELCA Lutheran, I like the idea that people in other religions shouldn't be condemned to hell just for existing in a different culture with a different religion.  Forced conversion doesn't seem to jive with Jesus's message to me.  The UU church will probably always interest me, but is too far outside my comfort zone.  I can believe what I want to believe, though, regardless of church affiliation.

[Moiraine]

23 hours ago, Big Red 40 said:

Any more thoughts from those who believe in an afterlife ? I believed the heaven for believers / hell for the nonbelievers doctrine for a long time . The thought of a loving God sending billions of non believers to an eternity in hell didn’t sit well with me though . To me all this needs to mean something and I believe we have a soul . Beliefs on what happens to the souls when the physical body expires? 

 

 

I believe in the afterlife, and I'm Christian, but I don't believe only Christians can get to heaven. I just find that completely illogical. The main reason I'm Christian and not Muslim or Hindu or Athiest is because I was born in the U.S. If I was born in Iran there is very little chance I would be Christian, and it doesn't make sense to me that those people would go to hell for that.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Moiraine

[Landlord]

4 hours ago, Kiyoat Husker said:

While I will probably always stay ELCA Lutheran, I like the idea that people in other religions shouldn't be condemned to hell just for existing in a different culture with a different religion. 

 

 

I'd say that's good, because that doesn't really hold up as something that makes much sense.

 

If there is such a thing as hell (as broadly defined as you want it to be), and there is such a thing as a need to believe in or have faith in something in order to obtain eternal life, this is the way I would approach that. God is the underlying source of all good substance and energy in the universe. Having faith in God is living through life making progress to tap into that energy, be in harmony with it, and letting it fulfill you.

 

If you decide instead to choose to focus on self, on ego, on bitterness, on gloom, so on and so forth, then "hell" would just be a natural progression of you eternally drifting further and further, by your own volition, from the source of light, healing, power, love and unity. 

 

In addition, even though I don't believe in a heaven/hell dichotomy, the idea of following Jesus being a pre-requisite for saving faith is much less to do with believing a certain set of intellectual propositions and more of, you know, what Jesus actually talked about when he said the greatest commandments were to love God and love your neighbor. If there is such a thing as hell, Roy Moore will end up there, despite his (what I would probably believe to be genuine) self-identification as a Christian. But conversely, can we really say that a woman in Syria who walks 5 miles to fill up a bucket of dirty water every day, never using it on herself but to bathe her husband, wash her children's school clothes, etc., ISN'T Christ-like? If we're going to insist on teams of people being in or out, that person most certainly has to be in, right?

[Big Red 40]

1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I believe in the afterlife, and I'm Christian, but I don't believe only Christians can get to heaven. I just find that completely illogical. The main reason I'm Christian and not Muslim or Hindu or Athiest is because I was born in the U.S. If I was born in Iran there is very little chance I would not be Christian, and it doesn't make sense to me that those people would go to hell for that.

I agree and where/ when I was born was a big factor in my early beliefs too  . We had a good, happy ,  life and Church was part of it. I had no reason to question things, so I didn’t,  til much later in life  . 

We were taught that  the the Bible said, God sent his only begotten son to die on the cross, and his blood was atonement for mankind’s sins . All we had to do was believe in him, commit our lives  to him,  and ask for forgiveness, to be “saved” The reward for that  was an eternal life in “heaven “ . Those who heard the word of God,  and rejected it, were subject to his wrath and  destined to eternity in hell . Hearing the word of God , and not believing, was one of the worst things you could do . 

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Big Red 40