Could Stanley Morgan's greatness hampered Martinez's view of the offense?

[In the Deed the Glory]

3 minutes ago, brophog said:

 

I think JD is the bigger problem, I agree there, and I’d say that was the case under Frost and Riley.

 

But safety alignment against this offense is first and foremost about the screen and box counts. Frost leverages this with extensive use of unbalanced sets like trips, quads, and empty.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say when I talked about how Frost moved JD around.  He used him to move safeties and confuse DBs by changing where he was in the alignment.

[In the Deed the Glory]

4 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Saying we aren’t talking stats is just weird in this conversation, especially when you bring up stats later. If you’re gonna say Frost was the biggest part of Morgan being good you need to show a clear difference and it just isn’t there. 

 

Also, Morgan played in 11 games in 2017. 

 

Stats tell a part of a story, watching the games tell another part.  Rileys offense was stagnant and had ZERO running game.  Nebraska attempted many more passes in 2017 versus 2018.  Adding in the QB run in the option and a 1000 yard rusher made a huge difference in opening the passing lanes for Morgan, but also in Frost's offense it allows so much more space to run in versus the year before for our WR.  Morgan is a good route runner, no argument there.  He just can't take the top off of a defense, which Riley/Langsdorf tried to make him do too often.  He was very good in that 10-15 yard range, so Frost put him in position to have a special season and gave him an excellent QB to deliver him the ball.  It broke down and didn't work against great DBs on good teams because he couldn't shake them loose and get open.

 

Listen, I like Stanley.  I'm a Nebraska fan.  Of course I root for him to be successful in the NFL.  I think he could be a nice 3rd WR in a slot/Z role.

 

However, I don't think Stanley is what made Adrian so good and therefore am not concerned with that issue this season suggesting Martinez won't have a good year. (Which was the premise of this thread)

 

I think Martinez/Frost are the reason Stanley looked so good in many games.

[Moiraine]

6 minutes ago, In the Deed the Glory said:

 

Stats tell a part of a story, watching the games tell another part.  Rileys offense was stagnant and had ZERO running game.  Nebraska attempted many more passes in 2017 versus 2018.  Adding in the QB run in the option and a 1000 yard rusher made a huge difference in opening the passing lanes for Morgan, but also in Frost's offense it allows so much more space to run in versus the year before for our WR.  Morgan is a good route runner, no argument there.  He just can't take the top off of a defense, which Riley/Langsdorf tried to make him do too often.  He was very good in that 10-15 yard range, so Frost put him in position to have a special season and gave him an excellent QB to deliver him the ball.  It broke down and didn't work against great DBs on good teams because he couldn't shake them loose and get open.

 

Listen, I like Stanley.  I'm a Nebraska fan.  Of course I root for him to be successful in the NFL.  I think he could be a nice 3rd WR in a slot/Z role.

 

However, I don't think Stanley is what made Adrian so good and therefore am not concerned with that issue this season suggesting Martinez won't have a good year. (Which was the premise of this thread)

 

I think Martinez/Frost are the reason Stanley looked so good in many games.

 

 

I think Martinez is a great QB regardless of Morgan and he’ll be fine this year. I agree Morgan didn’t make him great.

 

But I think it’s equally wrong to suggest that Frost is the biggest reason for Morgan’s success when, by every stat I can find, Morgan had miniscule improvement, if any at all. Most of what you’re saying in the first paragraph doesn’t support your argument. The stats don’t lie. And it could be argued what Morgan did in 2017 was more impressive because he was less open and the opponents knew we were passing. Yet he still had equal to better numbers. 

[In the Deed the Glory]

6 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I think Martinez is a great QB regardless of Morgan and he’ll be fine this year. I agree Morgan didn’t make him great.

 

But I think it’s equally wrong to suggest that Frost is the biggest reason for Morgan’s success when, by every stat I can find, Morgan had miniscule improvement, if any at all. Most of what you’re saying in the first paragraph doesn’t support your argument. The stats don’t lie. And it could be argued what Morgan did in 2017 was more impressive because he was less open and the opponents knew we were passing. Yet he still had equal to better numbers. 

 

Let me try again, as I read my reply I'm sorry I wasn't very clear in it.  What I'm basically saying is this:

1.  Stanley's numbers in 2017 were mostly to do with a higher number of targets but with more drops and errant throws.

2.  In 2018, Stanley had less targets but more catches and yards.

3.  He had more catches and yards in less targets because he was open in the new offense moreso than the old.

4.  Teams were confused trying to defend Frost's formation alignment and playcalling so it resulted in more busted coverages underneath as Frost sent multiple routes at safeties to make them freeze and make a decision.

5.  That moment allowed for routes like those Stanley was running and was very good at, to be wide open more than not.

6.  It also opens up the running game and passing to the backs while spreading the ball around to playmakers so the defense cannot key on one player. (It is not a coincidence that Morgan had less than 400 yards 6 games in before Devine started rolling)

 

Therefore, the scheme and playcalling of Scott Frost targeted Stanley less but made him a better and more efficient player in 2018.

[Moiraine]

23 minutes ago, In the Deed the Glory said:

 

Let me try again, as I read my reply I'm sorry I wasn't very clear in it.  What I'm basically saying is this:

1.  Stanley's numbers in 2017 were mostly to do with a higher number of targets but with more drops and errant throws.

2.  In 2018, Stanley had less targets but more catches and yards.

3.  He had more catches and yards in less targets because he was open in the new offense moreso than the old.

4.  Teams were confused trying to defend Frost's formation alignment and playcalling so it resulted in more busted coverages underneath as Frost sent multiple routes at safeties to make them freeze and make a decision.

5.  That moment allowed for routes like those Stanley was running and was very good at, to be wide open more than not.

6.  It also opens up the running game and passing to the backs while spreading the ball around to playmakers so the defense cannot key on one player. (It is not a coincidence that Morgan had less than 400 yards 6 games in before Devine started rolling)

 

Therefore, the scheme and playcalling of Scott Frost targeted Stanley less but made him a better and more efficient player in 2018.

 

 

That’s a good argument, but did he have less targets per game (seeing as he played 11 games in 2017)?

 

And is it enough of a difference to say Frost was the biggest reason for his success? There has to be a pretty big margin to make that argument, imo. 

 

 

Let me also state that Frost’s offense is going to give lots of players lots of yards and the offense is a hell of a lot better overall, so I’m definitely not arguing that. And Martinez is a great QB. It’s just that Morgan already had high production. Another argument that could bd made though is that there was no drop off in Morgan’s #s even though they were all learning the offense and that’s a feat we can credit Morgan, Frost, and Martinez for.

[Undone]

A lot of this discussion over minutia is good offseason fodder but here's my own personal summary: If special teams improves significantly and defense improves just a small amount over what we saw in our last four games our offense will have so many better chances to start drives with better field position and we will blow out multiple conference opponents. 

 

When Frost said just prior to game one of last season that he had only installed 80% of the playbook in year one at UCF, I get pretty excited looking at how Scott will out-scheme defenses this year. Losing Morgan won't make too much of a difference if even just our tight ends step up a bit more than they did last year and so many receivers will rack up yards.

[Moiraine]

37 minutes ago, Undone said:

A lot of this discussion over minutia is good offseason fodder but here's my own personal summary: If special teams improves significantly and defense improves just a small amount over what we saw in our last four games our offense will have so many better chances to start drives with better field position and we will blow out multiple conference opponents. 

 

When Frost said just prior to game one of last season that he had only installed 80% of the playbook in year one at UCF, I get pretty excited looking at how Scott will out-scheme defenses this year. Losing Morgan won't make too much of a difference if even just our tight ends step up a bit more than they did last year and so many receivers will rack up yards.

 

 

Agree with this. We need marginal improvement in the areas we were bad at to start winning a lot more games.

[ColoradoHusk]

I think Stanley had a great career at NU, especially as the focal point of the passing game during his last 2 years at NU.  I think Frost and Walters would tell you that they wish Stanley wouldn't have HAD to play so much last year.  Unfortunately, the other WR's weren't ready to play and contribute last year.

 

Regarding the topic of the thread, I don't know if Stanley hampered Martinez's learning of the offense.  It had to have been good for Adrian to have a go-to receiver like Stanley.  For most plays, Stanley was probably the initial read in a lot of designs, and if Frost's offense does a good job of play design and play calling, the initial read could/should have been open a good percentage of plays.  There is nothing wrong with Martinez going to the initial read, if he's open.  I am sure the coaches know, but I don't know if Martinez tried to "force" the ball into Stanley too many times last year.

[The Dude]

Imagine breaking Johnny Rodgers' single season receiving record that stood for 45 years, then breaking your own record again the following year, only to have internet dweebs claim you're not a great player.

[runningblind]

11 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Imagine breaking Johnny Rodgers' single season receiving record that stood for 45 years, then breaking your own record again the following year, only to have internet dweebs claim you're not a great player.

I think he was a very good college player.

 

However, I think you underestimate how middle-ish the bar was set for receiving at Nebraska.  I would expect those records to be broken frequently now and have Johnny be in the bottom of the top 10 in 10 years if Scott sticks around.

[Moiraine]

9 minutes ago, runningblind said:

I think he was a very good college player.

 

However, I think you underestimate how middle-ish the bar was set for receiving at Nebraska.  I would expect those records to be broken frequently now and have Johnny be in the bottom of the top 10 in 10 years if Scott sticks around.

 

Yup

[ColoradoHusk]

36 minutes ago, runningblind said:

I think he was a very good college player.

 

However, I think you underestimate how middle-ish the bar was set for receiving at Nebraska.  I would expect those records to be broken frequently now and have Johnny be in the bottom of the top 10 in 10 years if Scott sticks around.

I don’t know. I expect Frost’s offenses to put up huge stats, but I also think the strength of the offense is spreading the ball around and involving multiple players during the season.  Gameplans could differ significantly depending on the opponent, and a single receiver may not have consistent good games needed to get to 1000 yards in a season. Now that could change with the the potential to play 13-15 games in a season, which helps players pad stats. 

[runningblind]

7 minutes ago, ColoradoHusk said:

I don’t know. I expect Frost’s offenses to put up huge stats, but I also think the strength of the offense is spreading the ball around and involving multiple players during the season.  Gameplans could differ significantly depending on the opponent, and a single receiver may not have consistent good games needed to get to 1000 yards in a season. Now that could change with the the potential to play 13-15 games in a season, which helps players pad stats. 

In 6 years as an OC or head coach he has had 4 1000 yard receivers and a couple more get close.  Two of those years were with losing teams.

[ColoradoHusk]

1 minute ago, runningblind said:

In 6 years as an OC or head coach he has had 4 1000 yard receivers and a couple more get close.  Two of those years were with losing teams.

Thanks for that info. I also wonder if Frost’s offense will have a greater percentage going to the run game (compared to his Oregon and UCF offenses). This would be due to potential weather issues in the Big Ten, and sitting on leads in the 4th quarter.  Morgan piled up more catches and yards as NU was forced to pass more while being behind in games last year. 

[runningblind]

10 minutes ago, ColoradoHusk said:

Thanks for that info. I also wonder if Frost’s offense will have a greater percentage going to the run game (compared to his Oregon and UCF offenses). This would be due to potential weather issues in the Big Ten, and sitting on leads in the 4th quarter.  Morgan piled up more catches and yards as NU was forced to pass more while being behind in games last year. 

Could be, and of course things will fluctuate year to year.  I suspect they want to run a greater percentage, especially if it is highly successful.