Pass Defense Question

[zoogs]

 

Run a completely different scheme.

The problem is that we are starting/playing way too many players that either aren't ready or just don't have the talent to be playing at this level.

 

Would've hoped for better in the secondary, though. Defense Rex. Who's the other safety, Cockrell? Davie regressing, or just in a funk. #8, I don't remember really seeing him play before. #14 has been up and down before this year; seemed like the last staff didn't ever trust him. Who am I missing -- Jackson? Kind of the same there.

 

It's not an awful group by any means, but it's also not a group you'd be totally stunned to see struggle, I guess. Especially in a scheme that puts everything on them in order to try and take away other stuff. (Which I'm not opposed to, but I'm also not sure I won't become opposed to it later. Heh )

[wiby_NU]

 

Run a completely different scheme.

The problem is that we are starting/playing way too many players that either aren't ready or just don't have the talent to be playing at this level.

 

Aside from Josh Mitchell we are playing the same guys as last year. This was suppose to be our deepest group defensively. Virtually everyone out there has at least 1 year of D1 experience.

[Enhance]

The team's commitment to stopping the run has created a sieve for a pass defense and I don't know if that's something that works great at the college level if you don't have some very talented guys in the secondary.

 

The other big problem isn't so much scheme as it is understanding, IMHO. We have guys that SHOULD be picking up a certain assignment on a play but miss the read or don't take a good angle. Our defense almost looks like it's designed to allow WR's to make catches without a defender within 2-4 yards and that's clearly not how it should be. And whatever Banker is trying to get across to address the problem isn't sinking in.

[Thanks_Tom RR]

 

 

 

Use the boundary more as an extra defender. Jam them in the line of scrimmage. Float a saftey back to help, Gerry has enough speed and ball hawk abilities to do this.

Yep. Use the sideline as an extra defender. Play more press coverage to throw off timing routes and eliminate the 3 step drop quick throws to a spot. Have 1 safety in the box and one high to help the CB out. As mentioned earlier, no team will run 4 vertical routes.

I just hope wa start seeing something in the way of help for the CB's.

You're describing cover 3 or cover 1 robber defense. The Quarters everyone loves to hate is cover 4.

 

Like others alluded to, i don't know how likely Banker is philosophically to change his base D at this point. I have a feeling more aggressive corner play will help a lot. I think they're scared of getting burnt deep and that's resulting in the cushion. Pressing at the line would help a lot too. Hopefully, they get more comfortable and start playing less loose.

This is where the scheme becomes confusing. We give a huge cushion to prevent big plays but consistently get beat not only deep but on short slant and out patterns that turn into 20+ yard gains. Would it really hurt that much to press the receivers at the line?

 

You can stay in quarters and still defend the underneath by having the OLB eye the #2 for the first 10 yds and stay with him if he slants. This would allow the CB to get underneath the #1 because the safety has his help over top for vertical routes. I think our OLB are watch the edge (OT or TE) to determine run/pass, which helps stop the run but leaves the underneath routes exposed (particularly from double posts). This would also allow the CB to play press on the #1 because he has help over top, which also helps with those vertical routes because the #1 will fall into over/under bracket coverage, that is if the #2 slants. If the #2 gets passed from the OLB to the safety, the CB in press on the #1 is one-on-one and is leveraging the underneath, so he has to use the boundary as a "defender". Robber is another good adjustment for quarters coverage, if the offense is imbalanced with trips. The OLB can be assigned to the flat to cover #2 leaving the safety free to play over top on #1. Once #2 moves pass the second level, the safety becomes responsible for him, and the OLB goes down to #3 (TE or RB). Our LB must be coached to watch the run game first, as they do not help enough on the flats.

[Count 'Bility]

 

 

 

 

Use the boundary more as an extra defender. Jam them in the line of scrimmage. Float a saftey back to help, Gerry has enough speed and ball hawk abilities to do this.

Yep. Use the sideline as an extra defender. Play more press coverage to throw off timing routes and eliminate the 3 step drop quick throws to a spot. Have 1 safety in the box and one high to help the CB out. As mentioned earlier, no team will run 4 vertical routes.

I just hope wa start seeing something in the way of help for the CB's.

You're describing cover 3 or cover 1 robber defense. The Quarters everyone loves to hate is cover 4.

Like others alluded to, i don't know how likely Banker is philosophically to change his base D at this point. I have a feeling more aggressive corner play will help a lot. I think they're scared of getting burnt deep and that's resulting in the cushion. Pressing at the line would help a lot too. Hopefully, they get more comfortable and start playing less loose.

This is where the scheme becomes confusing. We give a huge cushion to prevent big plays but consistently get beat not only deep but on short slant and out patterns that turn into 20+ yard gains. Would it really hurt that much to press the receivers at the line?

You can stay in quarters and still defend the underneath by having the OLB eye the #2 for the first 10 yds and stay with him if he slants. This would allow the CB to get underneath the #1 because the safety has his help over top for vertical routes. I think our OLB are watch the edge (OT or TE) to determine run/pass, which helps stop the run but leaves the underneath routes exposed (particularly from double posts). This would also allow the CB to play press on the #1 because he has help over top, which also helps with those vertical routes because the #1 will fall into over/under bracket coverage, that is if the #2 slants. If the #2 gets passed from the OLB to the safety, the CB in press on the #1 is one-on-one and is leveraging the underneath, so he has to use the boundary as a "defender". Robber is another good adjustment for quarters coverage, if the offense is imbalanced with trips. The OLB can be assigned to the flat to cover #2 leaving the safety free to play over top on #1. Once #2 moves pass the second level, the safety becomes responsible for him, and the OLB goes down to #3 (TE or RB). Our LB must be coached to watch the run game first, as they do not help enough on the flats.

then you wonder how guys get open.

 

But in seriousness. This is an excellent take.

[GOAT]

Sad to say but these problems are very simple, elementary fundamentals... I have seen HS teams with better technique than our secondary.

[Count 'Bility]

Sad to say but these problems are very simple, elementary fundamentals... I have seen HS teams with better technique than our secondary.

i cant disagree

 

Though i said the same thing about bos run defense. Its a matter of preference i guess. With the choice of the two id take this going into big ten play.

 

Even Charlie Mcbride against the air raid Florida of all folks said you have to stop the run first.

 

I hope we get better against the pass. We need to. Obviously this is not sustainable. But its not panic button time either. Because at the expense of pass defense we are stopping the run. Yes. The few times they try it gets stuffed. I just happen to be a guy that prefers that mindset over what we had in the past. The one where we played two high and said loud and proud that Joel Stave wont beat us.

[Danny Bateman]

Excellent take Thanks Tom. +1.

 

Wiby, basically, no, I think pressing could help the coverage out a lot. It would tighten the outside CBs up on the receiver to help combat the easy ten yard slants for pitch and catch big gains we've been seeing. Tom was also correct when he said the OLBs running to the flat could fight those. The problem I have conceptually with Cover 4 is it puts more men over the top then you have on the first layer of the zone D, which leaves you susceptible underneath... which is exactly where we've been getting killed. That and the boundary on those outside fly routes.

 

Here's what Cover 4 coverage looks like:

 

Vs. Cover 3:

 

And Cover 2:

 

Conceptually, any of these can work. The problem with running zone is the gaps between the zones. If it were up to me, I'd probably opt for a Cover 3, since it's a good balance between preventing the big play and defending the short and intermediate stuff. It'd get us another man underneath on that first layer. But any zone is liable to weakness at the gaps, which is what we're seeing right now. They're simply running downfield past our LBs that are covering the flat, and exploiting those big rectangular shaped gaps shown in the Cover 4 picture.

It kind of ticks me off that Kalu got that PI penalty yesterday, because I felt that was textbook coverage from him, great coverage, that drew a flag because of a flop job. THAT's how you use the sideline as a defender. Very encouraging to see one DB, on one play, have damn near perfect coverage.

 

Philosophically, the coaches prefer Cover 4, with some man mixed in occasionally. We're getting burnt by big coverage based on cushions provided in zone, and also seem to have problems playing too loose in man coverage. I know people complain about LBs being matched up on WRs and getting toasted, but hey-- if they come out in a 4 or 5 wide offensive package and we're in nickel, that's just the reality of the situation. Clearly, they seem to believe in the LBs ability to cover.

 

I also don't buy the "we're experienced" rhetoric. Yesterday, we were without the entire LB corps, VV, Gangwish, and Davie, who we entered the year all thinking would be starters for us. That's over HALF our base D-- that's a TON to not have in terms of personnel. That makes a HUGE impact in how we prepare and play defense.

In both cases, adjustments need to be made. I am confident they will. If they are not, then the "can Banker" conversation legitimizes itself. I'm waiting until I see it for myself.

 

Sorry for the length of the post-- just things as I see them.

[BigRedBuster]

Here is an interesting stat when considering our pass rush.

 

2014 = 29 sacks all year.

2015 = 10 sacks through 4 games.

[Hayseed]

For those of you more knowledgeable than I what can the coaches do to improve the passing D? I know an elite pass rusher would be huge and a return of the injured backers also. But what kind of schemes could be used to improve the current situation? I don't intend for this to call out certain players or coaches or generally turn into a sh!$show either! What improvements or schemes can help?

Probably the most successful would be to pay $500,000 to coaches who know what to do. Are ordinary fans supposed to tell the highly paid coaches what to do to not be last in the country?

[HuskerJosh82]

Pass rush would definitely help out the secondary. Where the heck is Collins??

[ZRod]

 

Sad to say but these problems are very simple, elementary fundamentals... I have seen HS teams with better technique than our secondary.

i cant disagree

Though i said the same thing about bos run defense. Its a matter of preference i guess. With the choice of the two id take this going into big ten play.

Even Charlie Mcbride against the air raid Florida of all folks said you have to stop the run first.

I hope we get better against the pass. We need to. Obviously this is not sustainable. But its not panic button time either. Because at the expense of pass defense we are stopping the run. Yes. The few times they try it gets stuffed. I just happen to be a guy that prefers that mindset over what we had in the past. The one where we played two high and said loud and proud that Joel Stave wont beat us.

The one thing that scares me is that when Miami wanted to run, they could run. Golden just wouldn't commit to it for some reason. We shut down BYU, the only other team with a pulse so far, but they're rushing is also ranked 119th or something like that. I still know nothing about this defense, except the secondary is porus.

[HuskerJosh82]

Pass rush would definitely help out the secondary. Where the heck is Collins??

[Thanks_Tom RR]

 

For those of you more knowledgeable than I what can the coaches do to improve the passing D? I know an elite pass rusher would be huge and a return of the injured backers also. But what kind of schemes could be used to improve the current situation? I don't intend for this to call out certain players or coaches or generally turn into a sh!$show either! What improvements or schemes can help?

Probably the most successful would be to pay $500,000 to coaches who know what to do. Are ordinary fans supposed to tell the highly paid coaches what to do to not be last in the country?

 

No one is telling the coaches what to do. That is unless jimk is actually Banker looking for advice.

 

Honestly, I think this is a great thread. The OP is asking fans to discuss ideas about how the coaches might help the secondary, which will give us all something to look for on game day to compare and see what adjustments the coaches actually try (if any). Also, it points out that is scheme is not DOA, rather that specific adjustments can be made to shore up its weaknesses.

[Hayseed]

 

 

For those of you more knowledgeable than I what can the coaches do to improve the passing D? I know an elite pass rusher would be huge and a return of the injured backers also. But what kind of schemes could be used to improve the current situation? I don't intend for this to call out certain players or coaches or generally turn into a sh!$show either! What improvements or schemes can help?

Probably the most successful would be to pay $500,000 to coaches who know what to do. Are ordinary fans supposed to tell the highly paid coaches what to do to not be last in the country?

 

No one is telling the coaches what to do. That is unless jimk is actually Banker looking for advice.

 

Honestly, I think this is a great thread. The OP is asking fans to discuss ideas about how the coaches might help the secondary, which will give us all something to look for on game day to compare and see what adjustments the coaches actually try (if any). Also, it points out that is scheme is not DOA, rather that specific adjustments can be made to shore up its weaknesses.

 

Well yeah, that's what people on football boards do ,but it really comes down to what I said;....if we have to tell these highly paid coaches how not to be last then we're in trouble. Carry on with your analysis.