Homosexuality, Culture, and Theology

[knapplc]

JJ, think of it this way. 1964 American South. A Black man wants to marry his White girlfriend. People say it isn't right, it's against their beliefs, it's against their faith.

 

Other people say, whoa, who are you to judge? STFU and leave them alone.

 

Who's being bigoted there, the first group or the second? Whose belief should hold precedence?

 

A bigotry based on religious faith is not supportable.

[TonyStalloni]

I for one appreciate your thoughts JJ. We are similar in our beliefs. As a 60+ individual it hasn't been easy to challenge my past beliefs and let go of some of them. Society doesn't change overnight. It hasn't on many issues like womens and civil rights and it won't on the gay issue. I don't feel the media is doing a good job of advancing the cause of gay acceptance to a generation that would allow no acceptance. (Granted todays media is in the business of making money with sensationalism not advancing causes) A change of views is happening nationwide however.

[Landlord]

JJ, think of it this way. 1964 American South. A Black man wants to marry his White girlfriend. People say it isn't right, it's against their beliefs, it's against their faith.

 

 

Except that race and sexual activity are not comparable. At all.

 

 

 

 

 

People have very strange ideas of what acceptance and tolerance are.

 

What's your definition, and why should gays have to be tolerated? Why can't you just love and accept your fellow man for what he or she is? People on HuskerBoard tolerate me, because I have a propensity to say some stupid sh#t. Most people on HuskerBoard accept gays for what they are, because there is nothing wrong with being gay. Matt Chandler is promoting tolerance of gays, because their sin is just as sinful as any other sin. That's dumb. The whole idea of sin is dumb, and it's straight insulting to gays to compare their sexuality to something like murder or bestiality. It's just a way to hide hate in a pretty package. Hating gay people is hate, regardless of what the Bible or any other holy book says.

 

How would you feel if the Bible said it was a sin to have sexual relations with someone a year younger than you, but those are the women you're attracted to? How would you feel if 33 states had laws that say you couldn't marry a woman a year younger than you? How would you feel if millions, perhaps billions, of people across the world hated you just because you are attracted to women a year younger than you? You'd probably feel pretty bad, huh?

 

If you can't accept two men because they like to do the dirty with each other, then you just need to grow up. I'm sure they accept you for all the sins you're guilty of.

 

 

First of all - it's not gay people that Christianity 'tolerates' - it's homosexual behavior, at least ideally. People get this wrong all the time, but speaking for myself and for plenty of others, but it is not homosexual people that we think are wrong. Second, I do love my fellow men, to about the same extent as most humans do, but love and acceptance are not the same thing, and I don't accept any quality of the people I love that I think is wrong or harmful. My friend Jon is unreliable to make plans with and I want better for him. My friend Dez has a drinking problem and I'm not going to just let that slide without trying to help. People can be self-destructive and have character and personality traits that and real love of your fellow man is loving them for who they are, but it isn't JUST loving them as they are - it's also wanting more for them and coming alongside them to encourage them towards being better people.

 

Which takes us to the difference in thought that I think homosexual acts/behavior are sinful and you don't. Which I am fine with and totally okay to disagree on, because it is a moral issue. Since you can't do any test to prove that someone is gay, I have just as much of a right to say that I think this (homosexual action*****) is wrong as you do to say that you don't, the same way that some parents think that letting their underage kids drink is fine and some don't, some friends don't find a problem having consensual sex and some do, some people don't smoke or do drugs because they think they have really harmful effects and some do, etc. etc. etc. -- we have different worldviews which result in different answers to these questions.

 

So what's the problem there? I don't really think there is one. The problem is (and we have gotten this very wrong for a long time, generally speaking) when we take it too far. You need to be able to comprehend that when I or someone else thinks there is something wrong with homosexual behavior, that doesn't mean that I will persecute those people. IT IS NOT BIGOTRY TO THINK THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG. It becomes bigotry when I think something is wrong, and then go assault people that do it, or direct hate speech at them, or try to enact legislation that denies them rights that I have. But guess what? I'm not doing any of that. Far from it.

 

I have a handful of gay friends, and I don't say that just to give me carte blanche protection against any homophobic accusations. If you were to ask them, they would tell you that they know I love them. Like really care deeply about them and would do absolutely anything for them. They know my thoughts and they know that there are things in their life I will not celebrate with them, and we don't really even avoid it either - it comes up as conversation quite a bit. But they still love me and I still feel entirely loved by them all the time. They're great and they're dear to me and I want the absolute best for them.

[Landlord]

Also relevant:

 

http://www.advocate.com/comedy/2014/04/10/watch-stephen-colbert-loss-mozillas-brendan-eich

 

 

"In other words... we don't want to bring this kind of political warfare into the workplace. We've got to be able to get along with the people that we sincerely, passionately disagree with... Where I draw the line is when we start targeting individuals for punishment or calling them heretics or bigots or haters without giving them the chance to really explain themselves, to talk, to accept that they are reasonable human beings, that might have come to this conclusion for good reason."

 

 

 

Andrew Sullivan, the gay blogger and outspoken marriage equality supporter who has sometimes taken conservative stances, was quick to denounce Eich's ouster as a move that "disgusts" him, insisting that it should similarly repulse "anyone interested in a tolerant and diverse society."

"If this is the gay rights movement today — hounding our opponents with a fanaticism more like the religious right than anyone else — then count me out," continued Sullivan in a post published Wednesday evening at his site The Dish. "If we are about intimidating the free speech of others, we are no better than the anti-gay bullies who came before us."

[Junior]

 

JJ, think of it this way. 1964 American South. A Black man wants to marry his White girlfriend. People say it isn't right, it's against their beliefs, it's against their faith.

 

Except that race and sexual activity are not comparable. At all.

And why not, exactly?

[strigori]

There is quite a bit of irony in the fact that the religious conservatives are finding themselves on the opposite side of the fence.

 

Until very recently being outted as gay would be a quick way to lose your job, and even fear for your life in many places. Still is in many places on earth, where that is a real concern. Being told to 'shut up' is pretty mild in comparison.

[tschu]

"You can't tell me what I can and can't believe!"

[ZRod]

 

JJ, think of it this way. 1964 American South. A Black man wants to marry his White girlfriend. People say it isn't right, it's against their beliefs, it's against their faith.

 

 

Except that race and sexual activity are not comparable. At all.

 

 

 

 

 

People have very strange ideas of what acceptance and tolerance are.

 

What's your definition, and why should gays have to be tolerated? Why can't you just love and accept your fellow man for what he or she is? People on HuskerBoard tolerate me, because I have a propensity to say some stupid sh#t. Most people on HuskerBoard accept gays for what they are, because there is nothing wrong with being gay. Matt Chandler is promoting tolerance of gays, because their sin is just as sinful as any other sin. That's dumb. The whole idea of sin is dumb, and it's straight insulting to gays to compare their sexuality to something like murder or bestiality. It's just a way to hide hate in a pretty package. Hating gay people is hate, regardless of what the Bible or any other holy book says.

 

How would you feel if the Bible said it was a sin to have sexual relations with someone a year younger than you, but those are the women you're attracted to? How would you feel if 33 states had laws that say you couldn't marry a woman a year younger than you? How would you feel if millions, perhaps billions, of people across the world hated you just because you are attracted to women a year younger than you? You'd probably feel pretty bad, huh?

 

If you can't accept two men because they like to do the dirty with each other, then you just need to grow up. I'm sure they accept you for all the sins you're guilty of.

 

 

First of all - it's not gay people that Christianity 'tolerates' - it's homosexual behavior, at least ideally. People get this wrong all the time, but speaking for myself and for plenty of others, but it is not homosexual people that we think are wrong. Second, I do love my fellow men, to about the same extent as most humans do, but love and acceptance are not the same thing, and I don't accept any quality of the people I love that I think is wrong or harmful. My friend Jon is unreliable to make plans with and I want better for him. My friend Dez has a drinking problem and I'm not going to just let that slide without trying to help. People can be self-destructive and have character and personality traits that and real love of your fellow man is loving them for who they are, but it isn't JUST loving them as they are - it's also wanting more for them and coming alongside them to encourage them towards being better people.

 

 

Like you said though, those are self destructive behaviors. Homosexuality isn't a self destructive behavior any more than heterosexuality is. Again you're saying that they're "bad people", that's probably not how you intended but that's what you just said.

 

I just hope you believe it's immoral to wear clothing made of two kinds of material, to plant two kinds of seed in your field, or that those who work on the sabbath should be put to death.

[zoogs]

Except that race and sexual activity are not comparable. At all.

It's true that race and orientation are not the same thing, but the civil rights issues are highly analogous. Our society doesn't regard discriminating or judging based on race as acceptable. 'Not by the color of the skin, but content of character' and all that. It's becoming similarly unacceptable to do so based on sexual preference. We're exactly the same.

 

Equality is equality.

[Landlord]

 

Like you said though, those are self destructive behaviors. Homosexuality isn't a self destructive behavior any more than heterosexuality is. Again you're saying that they're "bad people", that's probably not how you intended but that's what you just said.

 

I just hope you believe it's immoral to wear clothing made of two kinds of material, to plant two kinds of seed in your field, or that those who work on the sabbath should be put to death.

 

 

 

Oh. So now you are the one making definitive moral claims. Well, I have no problem with you believing that, but if you have a problem with me believing otherwise then I'll just simply say, prove it.

 

It's laughable that you think I called people that engage in homosexual behavior bad people. I did no such thing whatsoever. I think they are making bad choices, but I don't discriminate. That's true of every human being.

 

And no, I don't think those things are immoral. The reason why is because I actually have better than a strawman elementary comprehension of how the old testament works, and that the argument against homosexual behavior isn't strictly based in the old testament. At least read a wikipedia article beforehand next time, and stop embarrassing yourself.

 

 

 

 

And why not, exactly?

 

 

A number of reasons, the two main ones being that you can't prove that someone is gay, and the second being that homosexual orientation is not strictly genetic. Tons of people have changed or fought or been confused about their sexual orientation - nobody can change their race.

 

 

 

 

 

It's true that race and orientation are not the same thing, but the civil rights issues are highly analogous. Our society doesn't regard discriminating or judging based on race as acceptable. 'Not by the color of the skin, but content of character' and all that. It's becoming similarly unacceptable to do so based on sexual preference. We're exactly the same.

 

Equality is equality.

 

 

Some of the civil rights issues are definitely analogous, and I agree with you. I also fight for those civil rights for gay people, the same way I would and do for any oppressed people. That's why the, yeah I'll say it, intolerance towards a traditional Christian understanding of the sinfulness of the action seems pretty disappointing. If you're going to freak out over something then freak out over people that are actually trying to keep gay people down - not people that disagree with what they're choosing in their lives but still fight for their rights, love them as people, and don't discriminate or differentiate.

 

Tolerance is a great thing when you are actually tolerant of ALL people's beliefs and convictions despite your differences and disagreements - yet the people you hear crying about it the most really just want people to be tolerant of the culture's current prevailing ideas, and dismissing anyone that doesn't agree as a bigot, without any legitimate attempt to understand their reasoning or see how they actually treat their fellow man.

 

I appreciate that you quoted MLK Jr. because that is exactly the point I want to make as well.

[tschu]

There are very few of those people. And actions speak louder than words.

 

But let's cry some more about the poor oppressed Christians who are having to bear the burden of their innocent beliefs a little bit more, shall we? It's entertaining to me, at least

[Landlord]

There are very few of those people. And actions speak louder than words.

 

But let's cry some more about the poor oppressed Christians who are having to bear the burden of their innocent beliefs a little bit more, shall we? It's entertaining to me, at least

 

 

Nobody is crying man, and no Christians have any burden of proof if they aren't trying to change people either. Christian or non-Christian I'll defend any individual people that get the short end of the stick in micro-level context, regardless of the privilege or lack thereof of their tribe as a whole.

 

But because there are few people like that then it's cool to lump those people into the 'intolerant bigot' category based on convenience instead of being based on their actual character? Got it.

[Landlord]

There is quite a bit of irony in the fact that the religious conservatives are finding themselves on the opposite side of the fence.

 

Until very recently being outted as gay would be a quick way to lose your job, and even fear for your life in many places. Still is in many places on earth, where that is a real concern. Being told to 'shut up' is pretty mild in comparison.

 

 

 

Tell me this, considering your exercise in context - where's the outrage over Christians (not American Christians - not claiming this for myself) being kidnapped, tortured and murdered far more than any other religious group all across the world?

 

Losing your job is pretty mild in comparison to that, yeah? Yet all of America isn't up in arms about it. Just face it - we are all inconsistent and get off on focusing on the hot-topic issues for our own conscience instead of for some enlightened altruistic belief in social justice.

[Hooked on Huskers]

U.S. prohibits discrimination on the grounds of race, color, religion, gender, national origin, age, disability, and political affiliation or belief. I think homosexual people covered in disability section. Lesbians/homo = brain defects. Need more research in lobotomy brain surgeries. Or else shock therapy.

 

or not. I'm not telling you !

[ZRod]

You didn't outright say they were bad, but you're comparing the behavior to alcoholism and drug use, two self destructive behaviors. You're right you can be a good person and still be an addict, but how is homosexuality in anyway self destructive?

How am I making a definitive moral claim? Tell me how homosexuality is self destructive. Do you spend all your money on it? Lose a job because of it's grip on you? Destroy your body because of it? Does it eventually kill you?

 

 

 

 

And no, I don't think those things are immoral. The reason why is because I actually have better than a strawman elementary comprehension of how the old testament works, and that the argument against homosexual behavior isn't strictly based in the old testament. At least read a wikipedia article beforehand next time, and stop embarrassing yourself.

 

 

Comprehension or interpretation? I do love the way you berate people you see as less intellectual than yourself.