Gay marriage legal in all 50 states

[BigRedBuster]

You too, my friend!

 

I think to some extent we all are spiritual. It doesn't need to be thought of as some manifest higher power, but human consciousness itself is a pretty special higher plane. The nature of which we struggle to grasp, even as we experience it. And I've no idea what it's like for animals. How weird!

If there is no higher power, then where does that spirituality or "higher plane" come from (or what is it) if it is more than just a bunch of chemical reactions in our brains making us feel certain ways?

 

My point is, in my opinion, we have scientific/biological/chemical things going on inside us and around us. Now, you have described something different.....that "higher plane". If all we are is a bunch of meaningless chemical reactions in a very long line of many other chemical reactions.......then what is this...."higher plane"?

[zoogs]

The human consciousness we all experience is that higher plane.

[BigRedBuster]

The human consciousness we all experience is that higher plane.

And...what is that?

[Hammerhead]

 

The human consciousness we all experience is that higher plane.

And...what is that?

 

 

Speaking for myself, it's something I couldn't possibly even try to explain in any sort of meaningful way. That said, just because I can't explain it doesn't mean that I have to chalk it up as evidence of a higher power.

[Landlord]

 

 

The human consciousness we all experience is that higher plane.

And...what is that?

 

 

Speaking for myself, it's something I couldn't possibly even try to explain in any sort of meaningful way. That said, just because I can't explain it doesn't mean that I have to chalk it up as evidence of a higher power.

 

 

 

 

I think BRB's entire point is that meaning is either self-contained within the electrical signals inside of our meat-sack-housed brains, or meaning is imbued in the universe outside of us. If it's the former, then we can make ourselves feel good by deciding our meaning, but at the end of the day that's ultimately just blissful ignorance because meaning isn't intrinsic to life, it's just a self created delusion. If it's the latter, then that points to something supernatural going on.

[Hammerhead]

 

 

 

The human consciousness we all experience is that higher plane.

And...what is that?

 

 

Speaking for myself, it's something I couldn't possibly even try to explain in any sort of meaningful way. That said, just because I can't explain it doesn't mean that I have to chalk it up as evidence of a higher power.

 

 

 

 

I think BRB's entire point is that meaning is either self-contained within the electrical signals inside of our meat-sack-housed brains, or meaning is imbued in the universe outside of us. If it's the former, then we can make ourselves feel good by deciding our meaning, but at the end of the day that's ultimately just blissful ignorance because meaning isn't intrinsic to life, it's just a self created delusion. If it's the latter, then that points to something supernatural going on.

 

 

That's probably the case. Not a particularly uplifting thought, but when Deep Thought was asked what the meaning of life, the universe, and everything is, "42" was probably as correct an answer as any.

[zoogs]

Yes, we can make ourselves feel good by ascribing meaning to a supernatural being. "Self-created delusion" were your words here, though!

Our consciousness is fact: we may as well celebrate it.

 

Surely, though, religion/spirituality/deism does not depend on on the function of our brains not being the firing of neurons and so forth.

 

My apologies; we seem to be going nowhere in circles.

[Landlord]

Our consciousness is fact: we may as well celebrate it.

 

 

Our consciousness decided to celebrate consciousness, because it decided that it is worth celebrating itself.

[zoogs]

Yes. Who cares?

 

At the end of the day, we are self aware, and we are able to to think and observe. Pretty neat gifts.

[Landlord]

GIFTS! HA! FROM WHO?!?! THAT'S RIGHT FROM GOD.

 

 

Checkmate atheists.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

The human consciousness we all experience is that higher plane.

And...what is that?

 

 

Speaking for myself, it's something I couldn't possibly even try to explain in any sort of meaningful way. That said, just because I can't explain it doesn't mean that I have to chalk it up as evidence of a higher power.

 

 

 

 

I think BRB's entire point is that meaning is either self-contained within the electrical signals inside of our meat-sack-housed brains, or meaning is imbued in the universe outside of us. If it's the former, then we can make ourselves feel good by deciding our meaning, but at the end of the day that's ultimately just blissful ignorance because meaning isn't intrinsic to life, it's just a self created delusion. If it's the latter, then that points to something supernatural going on.

 

Hmmm.....maybe.

 

OK...we have humans and we have dogs (among other animals). We all agree there is something different about humans. We have something inside us that makes us different. Zoog's explanation is that it's simply our consciousness and nothing more.

 

Well, why don't dogs have that consciousness? To me, it makes sense that there is a more powerful force working that gives us that consciousness. Now, if there isn't a more powerful force giving us that, then it is simply a continuation of the chemical reactions and the feelings we feel really mean nothing because all they are is chemical reactions to stimulus.

 

In other words, we THINK we are a higher consciousness than the dog. But, in reality, all we are is a different type of chemical reaction that makes us think differently.

 

To me ( and this is basically only my opinion), since I believe we are a higher consciousness than my dog, that points to a higher power working within us.

[zoogs]

I didn't say that animals don't have consciousness. But of course, it is a different experience than ours. Some animals are perhaps a little similar. A cockroach is not the same as a dolphin is not the same as a gorilla. And it should be equally noted that we aren't the only species of human to have ever walked the planet.

 

As for all this "if it's chemical then feelings and thoughts mean nothing", I don't know, that seems like something that's up to you to reconcile rather than treat as someone that conflicts with religion.

[cornographic]

Bisexuals present a particular problem for the religionists: which 1/2 of them do you discriminate against? They're like double agents.

[Notre Dame Joe]

One thing fascinating to me is how time and culture changes what we deem acceptable as a society. For example, the ancient Greeks are considered to be extremely civilized for their era, especially when one weighs their attention to politics. Therefore, it may be shocking for some of you to know homosexuality was commonplace among the ancient Greeks. Many men, including extremely powerful businessmen or political figures, routinely indulged in homosexual acts with young boys/men. These same men also had wives. Now, this does not mean everybody was into it, however, it's just what people did at the time. It was everywhere, and society at the time accepted it as this is how things are.

 

I don't offer this to be debated. I offer it just as another perspective for people to weigh and consider. Clearly, there are a lot more variables at play today than were at the time, especially since a lot of what we're talking about in today's culture is love/rights versus practicing homosexuality as a means of sexual release. But, I still find the Greeks an interesting people to consider in this debate. A very "civilized" culture took part in a very "sinful" action.

 

Strange they didn't equate that with a naturally reproductible marriage.

 

 

 

There is an awful lot about the greek empire that I would rather not emulate including the ultimate failure of their empire.

Ancient Greece was never an "empire". At least, not until they were overcome by Phillip of Macedon, who I believe did see himself as Greek.

 

As far as culture goes, there was no failure. Greek culture conquered Rome. It endures today. Obviously that particular and odd tradition never passed down. But more to Enhance's point, it's entirely up to societies to decide what's OK and what's not. These days, we've let go of some ancient prejudices and I think it's a testament to America's strengths and diversity. For example, you can see why suspicions against "outsiders" of different races and religions necessarily served older, more homogeneous states. We're a beautiful different.

 

We live in very free and open times. It's not guaranteed to last. Women in Afghanistan up until the 1970s enjoyed a progression towards greater equality before fundamentalist religion prevailed in the form of the Taliban. It only takes a crisis, and maybe even less.

 

 

Yeah, funny thing about Western culture. After they undergo a sexual revolution and wind up accepting homosexuality, they tend to decline. Food for thought, or an illegal substance in European nations.

 

[Enhance]

As for all this "if it's chemical then feelings and thoughts mean nothing", I don't know, that seems like something that's up to you to reconcile rather than treat as someone that conflicts with religion.

I think it can be a combination of chemical and spiritual in the same sense religion and science can be paired. Some of the greatest scientists in history, men and women who pioneered experiments and research that helped explain the human body, were deeply religious people.

 

Ultimately, I agree with you. I think each individual person has to determine if they want to consider a spiritual or powerful entity as having influence on their consciousness. I guess my argument would be I don't think it has to be one or the other.