Gay marriage legal in all 50 states

[zoogs]

You can come up with so many at least slightly analogous examples of people with certain proclivities that may or may not be healthy, but I for sure do not know any person who decided, "I have made up my mind I am going to be gay/an alcoholic/depressed/a sex addict/whatever."

Good post. I would agree with it more if it had said "...gay/straight/whatever".

 

Because I think it reveals a certain way of looking at things that is, well, disconcerting. Gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, whatever the case, these are all human expressions of sexuality (whether by nature or nurture) and none of them make a person any less or any more human.

 

But far too often -- including in this thread -- when the topic of being gay comes up, it's silently placed in the same breath as murder, adultery, greed, or you-name-the-depravity. Or marijuana. Which equally should probably be spared association with murder.

[Landlord]

 

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find anything graceful or humble about declaring that certain couples can enjoy a Godly, "real" union in love, and others cannot.

 

I'm sure the gay couple was largely unfathomable to the societies in that area of the world at the time. So this is conservative, yes.

 

 

 

That's fine. At the end of the day, there will be people that think that gay 'unions' are sinful at worst or unhealthy and unwise at best. I fall into this camp. I can't in good conscience, from what I know in life so far, decide to think it's all fine and dandy just for the sake of being compassionate, because I don't think that is true compassion on my end. I'm not at all trying to declare anything with my own voice or reason, but holding to what I've found to have already been declared true, and you can say it is ignorant and unhelpful, which it might very well be and I might (hopefully) figure that out along the way, but knowing my own heart and my own actions and intent towards my gay friends, I absolutely want the best for them, I encourage them towards what I think that is, and I give them freedom to decide differently if they want to.

 

I don't think that is lacking in grace, and I know my gay friends who know I genuinely love them and who also love me don't think so either, on a purely anecdotal level.

[Landlord]

 

You can come up with so many at least slightly analogous examples of people with certain proclivities that may or may not be healthy, but I for sure do not know any person who decided, "I have made up my mind I am going to be gay/an alcoholic/depressed/a sex addict/whatever."

Good post. I would agree with it more if it had said "...gay/straight/whatever".

 

Because I think it reveals a certain way of looking at things that is, well, disconcerting. Gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, whatever the case, these are all human expressions of sexuality (whether by nature or nurture) and none of them make a person any less or any more human.

 

But far too often -- including in this thread -- when the topic of being gay comes up, it's silently placed in the same breath as murder, adultery, greed, or you-name-the-depravity. Or marijuana. Which equally should probably be spared association with murder.

 

 

 

I thought about not going that route. What I don't mean to do is lump gay people in with some category of "bad" while maintaining that I am good. That's not the point, and if people come away with that then maybe I should re-examine my point.

 

To defend slightly the person that places being gay with those things, at least from my perspective, it's like I just said, I am not trying to lump them into some box that I can categorize as evil and bad. It's to show that the same stuff that makes up a gay person is the same stuff that makes up a straight person is the same stuff that makes up a depressed person and even is the same stuff that makes up a murderer. It is absolutely misguided if someone is actually trying to equate the two, but I think the Christian point that is at least trying to be grasped at is that we all have hangups and we all have tendencies towards good and bad things in our life, and not all of them should be encouraged and celebrated. Which ones should be is where disagreement comes in, but I think there is room for that as long as it isn't coming at the cost of someone else's well being.

[BigRedBuster]

Coach,

 

Can you describe the period in your life when you chose to be heterosexual? I think maybe that would help us understand better.

 

Have you ever (non-judgmentally) had a friendship with a gay person to the extent they opened up to you about their sexuality and how they felt about it?

I have. I have had numerous conversations with gay people about their situation and almost all of them would tell me privately that they wish they were not gay. Life would be MUCH easier and they would not be looked down upon in society and ridiculed. Throughout there adolescence they would have had less depression and better relationships with their family.

 

Two more stories that has taught be about this issue:

1) When i started working at a Hospital in Lincoln, I went out to a bar with some co-workers. I was the typical "hate gays" kid from small town Nebraska. Something was said at the table about going to a gay bar. I expressed my opinion that "I wasn't going because that would just gross me out being around all of them". Well, the table went very quiet and the subject was changed. I knew I had said the wrong thing but didn't understand what. Well, one of the women at the table was a lesbian. Now, contrary to what I implied above, this is a situation where something in her life changed her. You see, in high school, she was raped. This wasn't just a run of the mill rape. It was a brutal date rape that left her in the hospital. That experience left her so emotionally unable to trust a man that the only person she could trust and love intimately was another woman. She was happy with her life. She had accepted it as how things are and that's fine....other than idiots like me saying very hurtful things.

 

2) Second story. I was working at a hospital in Des Moines and became friends with a gay guy working in the same unit. After I got to know him, he started opening up to me about his situation. I knew he had a kid and thought that was kind of odd but didn't ask questions. Story is, he knew he was gay as a teenager. He tried denying it and it came to the point that he hated himself so much that he actually tried committing suicide. Well, he failed. After HS, he did everything he could to not be gay. He started dating a girl, fell in love (yes, he loved her) and they got married. They had a kid. However, he was miserable because he knew he was living a lie. He also knew that every time he had sex with his wife he actually thought it was gross and disgusting. This is similar to if society thought you needed to have sex with men. Could you do it? Well, it became so bad that he tried committing suicide again because he couldn't bring himself to admit to his family and even more so, his wife as to who he really was. Well, he failed again. But, in the aftermath of that, he told everyone. He got a divorce and started living HIS life and all of his depression left and he finally was happy.

 

Now, you can claim being gay is a choice. However, my experiences have taught be something completely different.

[krill]

I didn't mean to steer this discussion in another Christian vs. world type of thing, but perhaps it was inevitable.

 

Jesus is not attributed to saying anything on the topic of homosexuality in the gospels. He didn't say much on explicit do's and don'ts period outside what we would now consider general goodwill (love your neighbor as yourself) and common sense morality (don't murder, steal, lie, etc.).

 

The old testament is, let's just say, half scripture and half law. Most Christians readily dismiss the law aspect as antiquated and / or superseded by the teachings of Jesus in the new testament. I used the examples of shrimp, bacon, and mixing things as examples. It would be hypocritical to say obey this rule (a man shall not lie with another man) while not obeying the others. Plus, in the God of Abraham's eye, all sins are equally bad, so an argument that eating shrimp isn't as bad as a homosexual relationship wouldn't work.

 

Then we have the problems with the new testament. The non-gospel chapters were added into what we now call the Christian bible largely as a convenience to codify and spread the religion throughout the late Roman Empire. If you consider yourself a devout Christian trying to live your life as Christ did, I think it's entirely fair to dismiss everything besides the gospels, or simply consider it contextual reading. In fact, works such as Saint Augustine's City of God are far deeper reading in early Christian thinking.

 

As for my opinion on the matter, let me first say it's been over fifteen years since I attended church as a believer in what the church was doing. The attitude towards gays was probably the leading cause of my falling out. Every summer as a teenager I went a bible camp where huge amounts of time were spent using gays as the prime example of how our society had been corrupted. It never made any sense to me when the bible said little, or arguably anything on the topic, and there were plenty of us guilty of sins of flesh at that very camp. I think a lot of the young adults with sharper minds could see how hypocritical it was, that the arguments against homosexuality were more contorted than a Jenga tower, and not particularly relevant, but year after year it was the same message. Thinking back on that now, it's no surprise at all that vast numbers of Americans have drifted away from the church, while the increasingly small remainder becomes more zealous, sometimes even hateful in their behavior.

 

I just don't think it's a battle the church should be fighting. It's a very convenient battle for some ministers with dwindling congregations, and politicians that want to stir the pot and get your money though.

[zoogs]

That's fine. At the end of the day, there will be people that think that gay 'unions' are sinful at worst or unhealthy and unwise at best. I fall into this camp. I can't in good conscience, from what I know in life so far, decide to think it's all fine and dandy just for the sake of being compassionate, because I don't think that is true compassion on my end. I'm not at all trying to declare anything with my own voice or reason, but holding to what I've found to have already been declared true, and you can say it is ignorant and unhelpful, which it might very well be and I might (hopefully) figure that out along the way, but knowing my own heart and my own actions and intent towards my gay friends, I absolutely want the best for them, I encourage them towards what I think that is, and I give them freedom to decide differently if they want to.

 

I don't think that is lacking in grace, and I know my gay friends who know I genuinely love them and who also love me don't think so either, on a purely anecdotal level.

Thanks for the responses -- always well articulated. I can appreciate where you're coming from, but I do disagree with the bolded. We are all looking for something that works for us, and everyone is quite different. If someone has found something that fulfills them, can it really be called unhealthy? I'm sure you have reasons for believing so. And I do hope they wash away over time.

 

You mention "as long as it isn't coming at the cost of another's well being." Which is why, I think, bridging this gap in understanding is such an important issue. The current environment of acceptance has been achieved only by the recent sea change in popular opinion. And there's still ways to go, of course.

 

In 2003, some prominent lawyer wrote, "many Americans do not want persons who openly engage in homosexual conduct as partners in their business, as scoutmasters for their children, as teachers in their childrens schools, or as boarders in their homes". Without a huge shift in views and our waning tolerance for intolerance, this is the kind of stuff that is not only reality, but also celebrated and endorsed. Just having an identity that your society overwhelmingly condemns as sinful or unhealthy ... well, that's an insane amount of weight to carry.

 

I think in the end, nothing less than full-hearted acceptance is enough. I think most of America -- me, you included -- are most of the way there. But we will get there.

[Bigred_inSD]

I never made a choice to be attracted to women, it just happened and I always have been attracted to women, with that that said I can admit if a guy is good looking, I just don't want to have sex with any of them. How many of you have made a choice on who you want to have sexual relations with in regards to gender?

 

Secondly, I had a very good friend of mine who was raised in a very conservative household, this friend is gay, but due to his up bringing and the line of work he was once in made it difficult for him to come out. He knew from an early age he was attracted to men, but he faked being into women to not disappoint his parents. He even went to therapy, when he finally did come out to his parents over skype, the phrases " i don't have time for this sh!t" and a very offensive word for gay men was thrown out.

 

My point is, I do believe people are born straight or gay, but some have such a hard time admitting to it being that way because church, and the adults have pounded into them that being gay is bad and you will go to hell, they are scared and don't want to disappoint anyone. Its honestly horrible

[Landlord]

 

I think in the end, nothing less than full-hearted acceptance is enough. I think most of America -- me, you included -- are most of the way there. But we will get there.

 

 

 

The vagueness of that word frightens me in certain people's perspectives on what it means.

 

I think there have been some serious victories over the last few years, including this one, but I also think as a whole our country is going more towards a shallow mentality of "you are great no matter what do whatever you want that makes you happy" without any room for checks there. I only feel passionately about this because I feel passionately inside of myself that a lot of things I want, in fact more than not, are not good for me. I absolutely and desperately need people in my life to, yes, accept me no questions asked, but simultaneously help safeguard me from pitfalls of things I foolishly think will be good for me at the time. Caitlin Jenner is a high-profile example, with a handful of legitimate (obviously not 100% conclusive) studies showing that transgender surgery is not a good solution to the feelings and desires of people with gender confusion, but who does or did she have in her life going, "Hey. I'm here for you entirely, but I'm also not sure if this is the best idea. Can we talk about this?"

[teachercd]

I never made a choice to be attracted to women, it just happened and I always have been attracted to women, with that that said I can admit if a guy is good looking, I just don't want to have sex with any of them. How many of you have made a choice on who you want to have sexual relations with in regards to gender?

 

Secondly, I had a very good friend of mine who was raised in a very conservative household, this friend is gay, but due to his up bringing and the line of work he was once in made it difficult for him to come out. He knew from an early age he was attracted to men, but he faked being into women to not disappoint his parents. He even went to therapy, when he finally did come out to his parents over skype, the phrases " i don't have time for this sh!t" and a very offensive word for gay men was thrown out.

 

My point is, I do believe people are born straight or gay, but some have such a hard time admitting to it being that way because church, and the adults have pounded into them that being gay is bad and you will go to hell, they are scared and don't want to disappoint anyone. Its honestly horrible

Mic Drop...perfectly stated.

[The Dude]

 

Here is why homosexuality is different from other sins out there, and why it gets targeted so much more than any other by Christians.

 

Homosexuality, in our country, is celebrated. Murder is not, theft is not, adultery is not. etc... I stumbled upon a great explanation of this last night.

 

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-homosexuality-is-not-like-other-sins?fb_action_ids=10204639616653233&fb_action_types=og.shares

 

Its not the only sin mentioned, but it is different from all the rest, at least right now. At this moment in history, contrary to the other sins listed here, homosexuality is celebrated by our larger society with pioneering excitement. Its seen as a good thing, as the new hallmark of progress.

To be sure, the masses increasingly make no bones about sin in general. Innumerable people are idolaters, not to mention those who are sexually immoral, or who commit adultery, or who steal and are greedy and get wasted and revile neighbors and swindle others. It happens all the time. And each of these unrepentant sins are the same in the sense of Gods judgment. They all deserve his wrath. And were constantly reminded that such were some of you (1 Corinthians 6:11). You in the church.

I guess the irony is there would be no need for celebration if they were just treated equally in the first place.

[zoogs]

Caitlin Jenner is a high-profile example, with a handful of legitimate (obviously not 100% conclusive) studies showing that transgender surgery is not a good solution to the feelings and desires of people with gender confusion, but who does or did she have in her life going, "Hey. I'm here for you entirely, but I'm also not sure if this is the best idea. Can we talk about this?"

Probably a lot of people.

 

I don't think "full-hearted" acceptance means opening a blank check, by the way, so I think you needn't worry. As you point out, you, as a straight man, recognize that not everything you want in life is good for you, and you have a community of people who can try and steer you in the right direction. (Your sexuality does not appear to be one of those areas; congratulations! ) It is and will be no different for a gay person.

 

But they should be accepted as a person who is as fully human (for better or for worse) as a straight person, rather than regarded differently because of their sexuality. That's fair, right?

[Landlord]

hopefully

[schriznoeder]

At times like this, I often think about the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well.

 

LINK

 

The woman had been shunned from society because of who she was and everyone in the world was being judgement against her......except Jesus.

 

Jesus showed her that he still excepts her and loves her.

 

When I worked in health care in college (30 years ago) I remember a gay person was in ICU. The rule was that only family members could visit. This man's life partner who he had spent years and years with and loved couldn't come see him (as per the rules). There were some in the unit that wanted to abide by that rule. However, the unit manager decided that this should not apply in this situation and the man was able to come in and visit his partner for the last time while he was in his last few days of life.

 

THESE are the types of situations this decision is about. It's not about if you think them having sex is a sin or not. It's about two people who deeply care about each other being able to experience life and death in the same manner we do with the person we love.

 

This is just one situation in my life that has taught me a life lesson. Now, what would Jesus do in this situation? Would he be the judgmental "Christian" standing back and shaking his finger at the disgusting gay person claiming they shouldn't have the same rights? OR, would he be the one leading the man into see his loved one for the last time?

 

This decision is not taking God out of our country and the sooner we all realize that actually the stronger our Christian faith can become.

Great stuff! I couldn't have said it better myself.

[BigRedBuster]

 

At times like this, I often think about the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well.

 

LINK

 

The woman had been shunned from society because of who she was and everyone in the world was being judgement against her......except Jesus.

 

Jesus showed her that he still excepts her and loves her.

 

When I worked in health care in college (30 years ago) I remember a gay person was in ICU. The rule was that only family members could visit. This man's life partner who he had spent years and years with and loved couldn't come see him (as per the rules). There were some in the unit that wanted to abide by that rule. However, the unit manager decided that this should not apply in this situation and the man was able to come in and visit his partner for the last time while he was in his last few days of life.

 

THESE are the types of situations this decision is about. It's not about if you think them having sex is a sin or not. It's about two people who deeply care about each other being able to experience life and death in the same manner we do with the person we love.

 

This is just one situation in my life that has taught me a life lesson. Now, what would Jesus do in this situation? Would he be the judgmental "Christian" standing back and shaking his finger at the disgusting gay person claiming they shouldn't have the same rights? OR, would he be the one leading the man into see his loved one for the last time?

 

This decision is not taking God out of our country and the sooner we all realize that actually the stronger our Christian faith can become.

Great stuff! I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Thanks....

 

I actually forgot one part of that story.

 

The man who was in ICU was there completely alone due to the fact that decades before, his family had completely disowned him due to being gay. This life partner was the only "family" he had.

[ColoradoHusk]

Can I explain my lack of success with the ladies in my younger days as me choosing to be gay?