Brexit

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

I just read this on Reddit and thought it was an interesting take on what we've got going on, not only in the UK but here at home as well.

Australia has had five prime ministers in five years, the poor yanks look as though they'll have to choose between two options both of which have more disapproval than approval, and the UK leaves the EU. It seems like a ridiculous amount of instability. One might even call it absurd.

 

But it's not surprising.

 

You can't feed a society exaggeration, hyperbole and propaganda for over a decade and then claim surprise when people don't seem to be making rational decisions on the basis of well established truth.

 

There's a cost associated with not telling the truth. There's a cost associated with polarized, adversarial public discourse. There's a cost associated with the media more concerned with profits than public interest.

 

It is, apparently, time to pay the piper.

We see that hyperbole and propaganda here, all the time. America is going to get exactly the kind of chaos it earns with candidates like Trump, Cruz, and all the other raging blowhards. Fox News and their fear-mongering, the NRA and their fear-mongering, the lies about immigrants "build that wall!" and the bullsh#t being sold to average White Americans with a house, two cars, clothes, three flatscreen TVs, cable packages with 500 channels, who throw away tons of food every year and go on at least one vacation, about how things are being taken away from them....

 

You can't live in a palace and pretend you're a pauper for too long without that lie being exposed somehow.[/quot

 

---------------------------------------

 

Give me a break. This is what happens when you have weak leaders in place not looking out for their own. I have said repeatedly that the Novemeber election will not be a race on whether Hillary or Trump have the lowest unfavorable ratings, but whether Americans want an outsider vs insider. Hillary represents everything that is wrong with our political establishment system, and there is a stark choice to stick with the status quo or shake up the system.

 

Also, both sides use fear mongering all the time, so stop pretending its a one sided issue. Remember the Dems running an ad with Paul Ryan pushing granny off the cliff as a scare tactic for seniors to vote for Obama?

I think you are correct there.

 

However, I think your statement is only half the story. Trump also represents everything that is wrong in that the years and years of total BS fear mongering and sky is falling crap we have been fed have lead this many people to go bonkers for the first outsider that comes along and feeds them an even bigger load of BS.

[knapplc]

The Democrats are slapping America in the face with their buffoonery. Republicans, and their mouthpiece Fox News, are chopping America's arm off with theirs.

 

Both actions are assaults on the people. They are not alike, and continuing with this "both sides do it" lie only digs the hole deeper and deeper.

 

I'm not defending Democrats to anyone. Stop defending Republicans.

[knapplc]

I don't know the source of this, but it's as true in Great Britain as it is in America today. Pay close attention to what's happening to Britain, because that is exactly what'll happen here if people continue to listen to the fear mongers.

 

[TITANIC VS LUSITANIA]

I don't know the source of this, but it's as true in Great Britain as it is in America today. Pay close attention to what's happening to Britain, because that is exactly what'll happen here if people continue to listen to the fear mongers.

 

 

 

Isn't what you just posted, in application to the US, considered fear-mongering as well?

[huKSer]

Agree with the sentinments put forth thus far in this discussion but there is a more fundamental reasoning I am sure within the Brits generally and that is the central core of the major concern than a majority of Americans are feeling here. It is not 'immigration' per se but rather than negative impacts that mass immigration has caused to the economies of the countries allowing large scale immigration (the USA is the prime example). The British public knows full well that there are no jobs (living wage level ones certainly) and the standard of living has been plummeting for nearly a decade now. Government is not reacting at all and if anything is making matters worse. There are perhaps 20 million or more too many immigrants already in this country. The consequence has been an accelerating decline in wages (a mass increase in the supply of available labor drives down wages - basic economics). The silly argument that Americans simply won't do the work that the immigrants will is nonsense, although it is true that most Americans won't do many jobs that don't pay them enough to live. Going down this economic path has led to nothing but declining living standards for a majority of the population in America. This is being exacerbated by Obamacare which is further driving down cash wages as employers are both shifting the costs of mandatory insurance for employees onto the worker by lowering the wages employers pay but also by shifting work to other firms by contracting out for production, cleaning, maintenance, etc, etc. A decade ago, this was a problem. Today it is a disaster for many people as it has worsened dramatically. The British (a solid majority certainly) don't want to cut all ties with the EU but certainly see the economic dangers of being 'in bed' with the rest of the EU nations whose economies are in massive debt, declining living standards and uncontrolled immigration leading to more terrorism, higher crime, etc, etc. etc. One doesn't want to be 'partners' with a bunch of partners who are mismanaging their lives and societies generally.

84Husker Law brings some well thought out points, some of which I agree and others I disagree.

 

However, can't we ban him until he learns what a paragraph is?

[TGHusker]

Very interesting quote Knapp. Actually pretty profound. The right of the younger generation to work in 27 countries is an amazing statement. Yes indeed, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out and if it plays out here also. I heard someone say this morning it is like 1980 all over again. The British surprisingly selected Maggy the iron lady Thatcher as PM. A few months later Ronald Reagan is elected president - the "war monger" to the surprise of the outside world. Are we following a similar path again - Britain shocks the world wt this vote and the US does a double blow by voting for Trump in Nov? The former turned out very well - the Reagan/Thatcher partnership worked well for our countries and the world as a whole. I have my doubts that a 2nd round of surprises will go that well.

Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the breakup of the Soviet empire, we've seen the great advance of globalism and tying countries together into communities of trade, finance and to some degree politics. Now we are starting to see push back. The common man has seen jobs move to far away places, wages stagnate, and their culture changing by immigration and the importing (in Europe especially) of refugees who have no shared values or shared culture with those in the host countries. I think what happen in Britain boosts Trump here.

The push back against globalism and towards nationalism, if it continues, will be a very trying and difficult path. The global elites vs nationalistic forces. Tearing the global cloth apart, if it occurs, won't be without a lot of pain.

[TITANIC VS LUSITANIA]

Very interesting quote Knapp. Actually pretty profound. The right of the younger generation to work in 27 countries is an amazing statement. Yes indeed, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out and if it plays out here also. I heard someone say this morning it is like 1980 all over again. The British surprisingly selected Maggy the iron lady Thatcher as PM. A few months later Ronald Reagan is elected president - the "war monger" to the surprise of the outside world. Are we following a similar path again - Britain shocks the world wt this vote and the US does a double blow by voting for Trump in Nov? The former turned out very well - the Reagan/Thatcher partnership worked well for our countries and the world as a whole. I have my doubts that a 2nd round of surprises will go that well.

Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the breakup of the Soviet empire, we've seen the great advance of globalism and tying countries together into communities of trade, finance and to some degree politics. Now we are starting to see push back. The common man has seen jobs move to far away places, wages stagnate, and their culture changing by immigration and the importing (in Europe especially) of refugees who have no shared values or shared culture with those in the host countries. I think what happen in Britain boosts Trump here.

The push back against globalism and towards nationalism, if it continues, will be a very trying and difficult path. The global elites vs nationalistic forces. Tearing the global cloth apart, if it occurs, won't be without a lot of pain.

But would it be worth it?

[Red Five]

I don't know enough to comment fully, but Interesting demographic split on the vote

 

[HuskerNation1]

The Democrats are slapping America in the face with their buffoonery. Republicans, and their mouthpiece Fox News, are chopping America's arm off with theirs.

 

Both actions are assaults on the people. They are not alike, and continuing with this "both sides do it" lie only digs the hole deeper and deeper.

 

I'm not defending Democrats to anyone. Stop defending Republicans.

But you do defend Democrats often in these debates. Just go back and look at many of your posts. In the gun control debate you claimed that Democrats do not use fear to sell their ideas. Americans continue to feel this country is on the wrong track and the career politicians are to blame, just as the British decided yesterday. Trump represents those tired of both parties and I suspect he will win the Independent vote significantly.

[knapplc]

Isn't what you just posted, in application to the US, considered fear-mongering as well?

Explain.

[knapplc]

 

The Democrats are slapping America in the face with their buffoonery. Republicans, and their mouthpiece Fox News, are chopping America's arm off with theirs.

 

Both actions are assaults on the people. They are not alike, and continuing with this "both sides do it" lie only digs the hole deeper and deeper.

 

I'm not defending Democrats to anyone. Stop defending Republicans.

But you do defend Democrats often in these debates. Just go back and look at many of your posts. In the gun control debate you claimed that Democrats do not use fear to sell their ideas. Americans continue to feel this country is on the wrong track and the career politicians are to blame, just as the British decided yesterday. Trump represents those tired of both parties and I suspect he will win the Independent vote significantly.

 

Quote the posts where I've done this. Pretty simple to prove.

[BigRedBuster]

#idiot

 

 

Donald Trump is tweeting about Scotland and Brexit. It’s as ignorant as you’d expect.

 

 

This tweet is yet another example, as if we needed one, of how Trump is often uninformed on the major public policy issues of the day. Scotland isn’t the reason the Brexit vote succeeded. Far from it: 62 percent of Scots voted to remain in the EU.

 

Beyond all that, the idea of Scotland “taking their country back” is a fraught and complicated one. In 2014, Scotland held a referendum on whether to leave the United Kingdom, and the measure failed.

[TGHusker]

 

Very interesting quote Knapp. Actually pretty profound. The right of the younger generation to work in 27 countries is an amazing statement. Yes indeed, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out and if it plays out here also. I heard someone say this morning it is like 1980 all over again. The British surprisingly selected Maggy the iron lady Thatcher as PM. A few months later Ronald Reagan is elected president - the "war monger" to the surprise of the outside world. Are we following a similar path again - Britain shocks the world wt this vote and the US does a double blow by voting for Trump in Nov? The former turned out very well - the Reagan/Thatcher partnership worked well for our countries and the world as a whole. I have my doubts that a 2nd round of surprises will go that well.

Since the fall of the Berlin wall and the breakup of the Soviet empire, we've seen the great advance of globalism and tying countries together into communities of trade, finance and to some degree politics. Now we are starting to see push back. The common man has seen jobs move to far away places, wages stagnate, and their culture changing by immigration and the importing (in Europe especially) of refugees who have no shared values or shared culture with those in the host countries. I think what happen in Britain boosts Trump here.

The push back against globalism and towards nationalism, if it continues, will be a very trying and difficult path. The global elites vs nationalistic forces. Tearing the global cloth apart, if it occurs, won't be without a lot of pain.

But would it be worth it?

 

We can't see the end result from this vantage point. So, I don't know if it will be worth it at this point. Globalization, as a formal pathway, has been going on since Bretton Woods conference in July 1944 - monetary preparations for a post WW 2 effort to rebuild Europe and the devastated economies. One benefit of globalization is that it tied our economies together - we became dependent on each other. Example China's economy would be rocked if USA suddenly cut off all trade. Ours would be rocked because our economy is built around cheap consumer goods. (Trump will have to figure that dilemma out regarding his tariff scheme ). One problem with globalization is that it tied our economies together. When one suffers we all suffer to a certain extent - 2008 housing crash wasn't just a USA event. So what could we end up wt without globalization of today's scale - we could end up with a lot of what Europe was like pre-WW1. A lot of ethnic and cultural divisions, nations battling each other, etc. The EU snuffed some of the national interest for the benefit of Europe as a whole. With the rise of nationalism, we may see more conflict. I think the failure of the promise of globalism is that when those labor/manufacturing jobs left to go to other countries, the corresponding higher end jobs did not fill in the gap left by the outsourced jobs. Someone in India with a degree could do those high end jobs just as well for less money due to the rise of the internet connecting us all together. Thus we have the stagnant wages, job growth and a growing distrust of our leaders.

[TITANIC VS LUSITANIA]

 

Isn't what you just posted, in application to the US, considered fear-mongering as well?

Explain.

 

Well, first off, I will apologize I am not one who is good with words, or putting thoughts into words. Also, I am coming in blind, and don't know what your political conviction is. Do you mind if I ask?

 

How you came off was "if you listen to fear-mongerers (which you had qualified in a previous post to be specifically Trup, Cruz, Fox News, the NRA...in other words, the political right...). This would be bad, because it would set our society back to the stone age both economically and especially intellectually."

 

This is classic left-wing fear-mongerning, isn't it?

[knapplc]

 

 

Isn't what you just posted, in application to the US, considered fear-mongering as well?

Explain.

 

Well, first off, I will apologize I am not one who is good with words, or putting thoughts into words. Also, I am coming in blind, and don't know what your political conviction is. Do you mind if I ask?

 

How you came off was "if you listen to fear-mongerers (which you had qualified in a previous post to be specifically Trup, Cruz, Fox News, the NRA...in other words, the political right...). This would be bad, because it would set our society back to the stone age both economically and especially intellectually."

 

This is classic left-wing fear-mongerning, isn't it?

 

 

My political affiliation (Independent) is irrelevant to facts.

 

What I see are people choosing teams and sticking with those teams for a lifetime regardless of how far left or right those teams move. The Democrats and Republicans of the 1980s don't exist today, yet (for example) Republicans consistently bill themselves as the party of Reagan and invoke his name frequently. Modern Republicans decry nearly everything Obama does, despite the fact that he's more a Reagan Republican than a modern Democrat. He has a "D" behind his name, therefore he's a "leftist" or "liberal" which are terms that have been so massaged that they have almost no meaning.

 

Moderates, like me, have not changed. By definition we are always moderate. The problem is that the Right has moved SO FAR to the right that anything near moderate looks left-wing to them.