2018 mid-term

[RedDenver]

47 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

One of us isn’t following but I’m not sure which. Of course everyone who was educated by that tax money benefited. I thought that so obvious it doesn’t need to be stated. But I said in the first sentence of my post “not everyone benefits from roads and schools equally.” I’m not sure why this is a contentious point for anyone. Are you denying that parents benefit more from it than non parents? Without it they would all be in charge of their kids’ education - either paying for it or finding the time to do it themselves. Also, people who have kids are costing the government more $ because it’s more people to education.

 

Let me add, although originally I didn’t think it was necessary - I think it’s obvious that society benefits from everyone getting an education. That’s my point. Not everyone gets a deadly disease but I think society would benefit if anyone who does can afford to get help.

I am disagreeing that parents benefit more than the person being educated. However much you think parents benefit from their child being educated, the parent of a person with no kids benefited equally. Your argument basically rests on the idea that education benefits extend from one generation to the next without looking back at the previous generation.

 

Also, you assume that parents will pay for or do their kids' education themselves, but if you look back in history you'll see that only the rich were educated - and that a parent can only educate their children if they themselves are already educated.

 

Yes, it's obvious that society benefits from everyone getting educated. I don't think we're much in disagreement, but I see these arguments that people without kids or whose kids have grown shouldn't have to pay for the next generation to get educated, and it's such nonsense that I can't let it pass.

[BigRedBuster]

This discussion is kind of ridiculous.  

 

Everyone in society benefits from the public education system.  If you have a job, chances are its because you have some education.  If you have coworkers that are good at what they do, it's because they are educated.  If you employ people, you benefit from them being educated.  The educated person is much less likely to live off of government programs...thus allowing you to be taxed less.  The more people are educated, the higher their incomes, the better our economy, the more jobs are available for everyone else.  The more people who have jobs, they pay taxes to build roads, protect our country and provide care for people who can't take care of themselves.

 

Saying someone doesn't benefit from public education is well....uneducated on the issue.

[RedDenver]

6 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

This discussion is kind of ridiculous.  

 

Everyone in society benefits from the public education system.  If you have a job, chances are its because you have some education.  If you have coworkers that are good at what they do, it's because they are educated.  If you employ people, you benefit from them being educated.  The educated person is much less likely to live off of government programs...thus allowing you to be taxed less.  The more people are educated, the higher their incomes, the better our economy, the more jobs are available for everyone else.  The more people who have jobs, they pay taxes to build roads, protect our country and provide care for people who can't take care of themselves.

 

Saying someone doesn't benefit from public education is well....uneducated on the issue.

Sure, take the rational systemic view instead of arguing the tiny details. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

This discussion is kind of ridiculous.  

 

Everyone in society benefits from the public education system.  If you have a job, chances are its because you have some education.  If you have coworkers that are good at what they do, it's because they are educated.  If you employ people, you benefit from them being educated.  The educated person is much less likely to live off of government programs...thus allowing you to be taxed less.  The more people are educated, the higher their incomes, the better our economy, the more jobs are available for everyone else.  The more people who have jobs, they pay taxes to build roads, protect our country and provide care for people who can't take care of themselves.

 

Saying someone doesn't benefit from public education is well....uneducated on the issue.

 

And here's where the national debate has already landed:

 

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is crazy.

 

Single-payer healthcare. Free university tuition. Government incentivized green energy. It's the pipe dream of fuzzy-headed liberals, built on the backs of hard-working capitalists. 

 

And while it may sound dreamy and ideological, this fearful progressive agenda is far more logical than conservatives and centrist Democrats would have you believe. If you crunch the numbers, think long-term and break out the Return on Investment, it's not only a quality of life advantage for most Americans, it could actually be good for business. That would require the Top One Percenters having to accept taxation and executive compensation models closer to what they were 40 - 50 years ago, when they were still elite titans, but the huge and growing imbalance in wealth distribution could correct itself in a lot more unpleasant ways. 

 

We literally build planes and missiles we don't need while letting the American education system plummet out of First World status. We are literally building walls instead of bridges. Our healthcare system doesn't even follow standard supply and demand capitalism anymore. We've been taught that taking a modest percentage out of the military and raising taxes on the wealthy is the slippery slope to.....something bad. But isn't the opposite the more obvious solution? At that point it's not even fuzzy or dreamy. It's a much smarter investment. 

 

The agreement to pool our resources and abilities to the greater good isn't always Socialism. Sometimes it's just Civilization. 

[Moiraine]

27 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

I am disagreeing that parents benefit more than the person being educated. However much you think parents benefit from their child being educated, the parent of a person with no kids benefited equally. Your argument basically rests on the idea that education benefits extend from one generation to the next without looking back at the previous generation.

 

Also, you assume that parents will pay for or do their kids' education themselves, but if you look back in history you'll see that only the rich were educated - and that a parent can only educate their children if they themselves are already educated.

 

Yes, it's obvious that society benefits from everyone getting educated. I don't think we're much in disagreement, but I see these arguments that people without kids or whose kids have grown shouldn't have to pay for the next generation to get educated, and it's such nonsense that I can't let it pass.

 

 

 

I’m not sure how you so terribly misunderstood my post.

 

I never said/meant parents benefit more than the person being educated. I’m saying parents benefit more than non parents from free education. I’m talking in general here. It matters not one bit that some people wouldn’t educate their kids. The fact is nonparents wouldn’t have to pay for their kids to go to school because they have none. At least some parents would be paying to educate their children if the government didn’t pay for it. It’s an absolute fact that parents benefit more from free education to kids than non parents do. I’m not sure how this is arguable.

 

To your last paragraph, you’re not stopping anything from “passing” because that’s literally the point I’m making. Everyone should have to pay for kids to get educated, even if as an adult they aren’t benefitting directly because they aren’t getting their non-existent children’s educations paid for. The point is it helps society on the whole. So does all of us, even the healthy ones, paying for taxes so other people can get cancer treatment.

 

My point was education isn’t an example of something that helps everyone equally, nor are highways. Nor is anything else, really. But they do help society on the whole. People take these things for granted and ignore them when pissing and moaning about taxes, trying to argue that “education is different matter” to argue against big government or socialism, then pick and choose things to whine about that aren’t really all that different.

[Guy Chamberlin]

2 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

 

I'd assume that those without kids, went to school at some point themselves, no? I don't have a problem with the government offering health insurance. The ONLY issue I take with Obamacare is that they penalize you for not buying insurance of some kind. I don't think you should force people to purchase a product (It's the libertarian in me).

 

 

 

Do we have a Libertarian thread on here? Maybe we should open one.

 

I definitely have a libertarian streak, but I've started to realize that EVERYONE has a libertarian streak. It's kind of how we're hardwired.

 

The problem is that to become a political party, Libertarians need rules and leaders, and that goes against the ideology itself.

 

The other problem is that we all want to be free to make our own damn choices, but we all want to draw the line somewhere.

 

Then you have to define the line that works for most people.

 

Then you're right where we are.

[Moiraine]

43 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

This discussion is kind of ridiculous.  

 

Everyone in society benefits from the public education system.  If you have a job, chances are its because you have some education.  If you have coworkers that are good at what they do, it's because they are educated.  If you employ people, you benefit from them being educated.  The educated person is much less likely to live off of government programs...thus allowing you to be taxed less.  The more people are educated, the higher their incomes, the better our economy, the more jobs are available for everyone else.  The more people who have jobs, they pay taxes to build roads, protect our country and provide care for people who can't take care of themselves.

 

Saying someone doesn't benefit from public education is well....uneducated on the issue.

 

 

 

 

 

What the actual fruit is up with you people today? Or am I just that fruiting bad at explaining s#!t?

 

How many fruiting times do I have to fruiting explain what I’m trying to say?

 

You are preaching to the choir here. I never once fruiting argued against this wall of text you’ve posted and I agree completely with it. I never once said people don’t benefit from free education. lol. I said the opposite. I shouldn’t have even had to say it, though, because it’s obvious. Just like universal health care would benefit everyone, including the healthy. <- my point is right here.

 

My whole fruiting point is pretty much everything you can think of that taxes pay for helps some people directly more than others but that is a terrible argument to not spend taxes on said things! It’s also a terrible argument against socialism. 

 

Most people who are anti tax don’t realize just how much they are benefitting from tax money because they can’t see the direct impact it has on them. That is what I’m saying with the education example. Everyone *knows* education benefits society and its worth paying for everyone’s kids to go to school. But they always shove it over in the corner and decide it’s an example that doesn’t apply to “crazy” things like universal health care. 

[BigRedBuster]

Maybe we need better education. You don’t even know how to spell f#&%ing. 

[Moiraine]

1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

Maybe we need better education. You don’t even know how to spell f#&%ing. 

 

 

I was trying to show that I’m not being a total a$$h@!e/bitch just a sort of one. I’m more frustrated than anything. Maybe I need a nap.

 

Hey. Why is a$$h@!e censored but bitch isn’t. I’m crying fowl here. 

[RedDenver]

31 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I was trying to show that I’m not being a total a$$h@!e/bitch just a sort of one. I’m more frustrated than anything. Maybe I need a nap.

 

Hey. Why is a$$h@!e censored but bitch isn’t. I’m crying fowl here. 

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your point, just some of the details in your examples.

[Landlord]

3 hours ago, Moiraine said:

Meritocracy is a myth.

 

 

This is probably the most important sentiment and the most overlooked sentiment when discussing upward mobility and financial success with conservative perspectives.

[B.B. Hemingway]

 

Ineptocracy is certainly not a myth.

[Guy Chamberlin]

23 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

Ineptocracy is certainly not a myth.

 

When things go bad and you have to choose between evil and incompetence, incompetence is usually the smart bet.

[BigRedBuster]

5 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

When things go bad and you have to choose between evil and incompetence, incompetence is usually the smart bet.

 

And, it's a problem when the one that gets voted in is both evil and incompetent.  

[Guy Chamberlin]

3 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

And, it's a problem when the one that gets voted in is both evil and incompetent.  

 

Maybe. I've read a couple articles pointing out how much worse a Trump presidency would be if he actually knew what he was doing.