Moiraine Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 1 hour ago, TGHusker said: I think you need to go revisit your post.. Start doing a bit of research and you may want to retract that statement. Look at all of the giving done by individual Christian churches, Christian based relief agencies (World Vision, Compassion Int'l, Samaritan's purse .. the list could go on and on), Salvation Army, all kinds of church denominational based relief agencies, etc - all that respond to a crisis like this much less their day to day outreach to the poor, hurting, homeless, etc. There would be too many to name here in one post. Most individual Christians will do their giving through these organizations - because they know where it is going. Don't broad-brush all of Christendom by one guy who would be sitting on the wrong side of the 'money changer's table' that Jesus turned over-- or by those hypocrites you many see (news alert - we are all hypocrites one way or another - do we always do the thing we know to do? That is why we need grace.) What about my post made you think my opinion is based on this one guy (other than it being in this topic)? I'm Christian and grew up surrounded by Christians. I've had a few decades to develop this opinion. Link to comment
TGHusker Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 A very quick search, This site, copied below, noted a couple of older studies and their conclusions. Again it is a broad overview - individually, people may be different than the outcomes. Please also note the discussion above wasn't mosques vs churches - I'm very glad to see the mosques opening their doors quickly as noted. My statements aren't meant to be a competition between the two - nor did I implied it. I applaud all organizations regardless of religious or non-religious backgrounds who are helping. My post was to suggest that as a whole the Christian community is not hypocritical and actually response very well when it comes to giving and that we cannot let one charlatan or 10 paint that community otherwise. I once posted probably 2 or 3 years ago, a list of what the Catholic Church, alone does to help the poor and their disaster relief efforts through the years. It was pretty eye opening. and I'm not a Catholic by the way. One may argue that some of that charity giving (that given specifically to a church or mosque) is giving to religion itself, however, much of what the church does wt the funds id to better the community via all kinds of outreaches and relief efforts like what is happening in Houston. http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_charity#cite_note-barna.org-2 Concerning the issue of atheism and charity, charitable giving by atheists and agnostics in America is significantly less than by theists, according to a study by the Barna Group: “ The typical no-faith American donated just $200 in 2006, which is more than seven times less than the amount contributed by the prototypical active-faith adult ($1500). Even when church-based giving is subtracted from the equation, active-faith adults donated twice as many dollars last year as did atheists and agnostics. In fact, while just 7% of active-faith adults failed to contribute any personal funds in 2006, that compares with 22% among the no-faith adults.[2] ” A comprehensive study by Harvard University professor Robert Putnam found that religious people are more charitable than their irreligious counterparts.[3][4] The study revealed that forty percent of worship service attending Americans volunteer regularly to help the poor and elderly as opposed to 15% of Americans who never attend services.[3][4] Moreover, religious individuals are more likely than non-religious individuals to volunteer for school and youth programs (36% vs. 15%), a neighborhood or civic group (26% vs. 13%), and for health care (21% vs. 13%).[3][4] Arthur C. Brooks wrote in Policy Review regarding data collected in the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey (SCCBS) (data collected by in 2000 by researchers at universities throughout the United States and the Roper Center for Public Opinion Research): “ The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.[5] ” ABC News reported: “ ...the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation. Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization: "Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities."[6] ” A graphic from the website Answers for Atheist.[7] In 2009, Pew Research Forum reported that a comprehensive study by Harvard University professor Robert Putnam found that religious people are more charitable than their irreligious counterparts.[3][4] The study revealed that forty percent of worship service attending Americans volunteer regularly to help the poor and elderly as opposed to 15% of Americans who never attend services.[3][4] Moreover, religious individuals are more likely than non-religious individuals to volunteer for school and youth programs (36% vs. 15%), a neighborhood or civic group (26% vs. 13%), and for health care (21% vs. 13%).[3][4] some what related but from a different angles: Both show religious give more (also conservative, red states less wealthy give higher % of income -- give more) https://www.philanthropy.com/article/America-s-Generosity-Divide/156175 http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1 http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/religious-people-donate-more-to-church-and-charity 1 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, Moiraine said: What about my post made you think my opinion is based on this one guy (other than it being in this topic)? I'm Christian and grew up surrounded by Christians. I've had a few decades to develop this opinion. 1. The topic was about this one church and guy. 2. I personally believe your conclusions are incorrect. As noted in my post above, the religious community gives more than the general population. 3. I don't state that as an 'attack on you ' in any way, just that I disagree with your conclusions. Link to comment
RedDenver Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 TG, "religious" people are more than just Christians. Even if it's true that atheists are less charitable than non-atheists that doesn't mean Christians are more charitable than other religious groups. And nice find on the atheist charity data. Link to comment
TGHusker Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 11 minutes ago, RedDenver said: TG, "religious" people are more than just Christians. Even if it's true that atheists are less charitable than non-atheists that doesn't mean Christians are more charitable than other religious groups. And nice find on the atheist charity data. yes, I know that of course. The predominant religion in the USA is Christian. The studies aren't comparing one religion from another but one could easily conclude since the large majority of the religious are Christian here in the USA, and that giving and missions are important tenants of the faith, that these #s are heavily weighted by Christian giving. My post isn't about "I'm PROUD TO BE A CHRISTIAN BECAUSE WE GIVE MORE - RA RA!! - Look How Proud I am of my humble giving!!" We give because it honors Christ. We honor Christ when we give to the poor, the needy, help the orphan and the widow. This isn't a competition thing - "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." Luke 9:50. This isn't a competition thing with the non-religious either - I say grab a hand with whoever - whatever faith or non-faith, race, etc to make a difference. Here is a simple little song I wrote called "The Greatest". Just a little jingle that expresses my heart on this. If it ever gets published and becomes famously popular (very doubtful) you will then know my true identity If you play guitar, play a slow methodical tempo wt chorus a bit faster The Greatest by TGHusker Based on Mark 10:35-45; James 1:27; 2Cor 1:3-7; Prov 19:17; Matt 10:42 Chorus E/D D/C A/G Oh, Oh, The Greatest is the Servant Oh, Oh, The last are first Oh, Oh, God exalts the humble D/C E/D E7 A/G The greatest is the servant of all (repeat line) vs1 D/C A/G E/D A/G If you shed tears in the darkness D/C A/G E/D A/G Burdened by the pain you see D/C A/G E/D A/G You are sharing the heart of the Father D/C A/G E/D A/G His hands to those in need v2 D/C A/G E/D A/G The pain in life is never wasted As you comfort broken hearts It’s by grace you’ve been healed It’s His grace you pass on D/C A/G E/D A/G When you rescue the desolate child Or care for the widow’s need You are practicing true religion Both in word and deed v3 (Rif of the verse) D/C A/G E/ D A/G When you give bread to the hungry It is Christ to whom you give When you offer water to the thirsty It is Christ who you serve Link to comment
Fru Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 "No room at this inn" -Joel Osteen 3 Link to comment
Moiraine Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 12 hours ago, TGHusker said: A very quick search, This site, copied below, noted a couple of older studies and their conclusions. Again it is a broad overview - individually, people may be different than the outcomes. Please also note the discussion above wasn't mosques vs churches - I'm very glad to see the mosques opening their doors quickly as noted. My statements aren't meant to be a competition between the two - nor did I implied it. I applaud all organizations regardless of religious or non-religious backgrounds who are helping. My post was to suggest that as a whole the Christian community is not hypocritical and actually response very well when it comes to giving and that we cannot let one charlatan or 10 paint that community otherwise. I once posted probably 2 or 3 years ago, a list of what the Catholic Church, alone does to help the poor and their disaster relief efforts through the years. It was pretty eye opening. and I'm not a Catholic by the way. One may argue that some of that charity giving (that given specifically to a church or mosque) is giving to religion itself, however, much of what the church does wt the funds id to better the community via all kinds of outreaches and relief efforts like what is happening in Houston. http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_charity#cite_note-barna.org-2 Concerning the issue of atheism and charity, charitable giving by atheists and agnostics in America is significantly less than by theists, according to a study by the Barna Group: “ The typical no-faith American donated just $200 in 2006, which is more than seven times less than the amount contributed by the prototypical active-faith adult ($1500). Even when church-based giving is subtracted from the equation, active-faith adults donated twice as many dollars last year as did atheists and agnostics. In fact, while just 7% of active-faith adults failed to contribute any personal funds in 2006, that compares with 22% among the no-faith adults.[2] ” A comprehensive study by Harvard University professor Robert Putnam found that religious people are more charitable than their irreligious counterparts.[3][4] The study revealed that forty percent of worship service attending Americans volunteer regularly to help the poor and elderly as opposed to 15% of Americans who never attend services.[3][4] Moreover, religious individuals are more likely than non-religious individuals to volunteer for school and youth programs (36% vs. 15%), a neighborhood or civic group (26% vs. 13%), and for health care (21% vs. 13%).[3][4] Arthur C. Brooks wrote in Policy Review regarding data collected in the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey (SCCBS) (data collected by in 2000 by researchers at universities throughout the United States and the Roper Center for Public Opinion Research): “ The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.[5] ” ABC News reported: “ ...the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation. Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization: "Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities."[6] ” A graphic from the website Answers for Atheist.[7] In 2009, Pew Research Forum reported that a comprehensive study by Harvard University professor Robert Putnam found that religious people are more charitable than their irreligious counterparts.[3][4] The study revealed that forty percent of worship service attending Americans volunteer regularly to help the poor and elderly as opposed to 15% of Americans who never attend services.[3][4] Moreover, religious individuals are more likely than non-religious individuals to volunteer for school and youth programs (36% vs. 15%), a neighborhood or civic group (26% vs. 13%), and for health care (21% vs. 13%).[3][4] some what related but from a different angles: Both show religious give more (also conservative, red states less wealthy give higher % of income -- give more) https://www.philanthropy.com/article/America-s-Generosity-Divide/156175 http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1 http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/religious-people-donate-more-to-church-and-charity Good post TGH. Most of the links in the articles you linked are broken, so I wasn't able to confirm a few things that I would with anything like this. There are some mentions of these things here and there but I can't get any details. For instance, which studies took income into account? Did they take income into account and the recipients of the charity? A couple of the studies mentioned non-religious charities but not much detail about how they accounted for it. One of them was only comparing Sioux City to San Francisco and whether people walking by donated. That's not a study anyone can draw real conclusions from. (No random selection of locations, no random selection of people at the locations). It's also difficult for me to wade through an article and find truth when it says something like the following: Quote The report found that the eight states where residents gave the highest share of income to charity voted for Republican presidential candidate John McCain in 2008, while the seven lowest-ranking states supported Barack Obama. “Liberals give less,” said Brooks.“Liberals are the least likely to help the poor,” agreed Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League. “That’s the inescapable conclusion of this new study.” The bolded is a conclusion that can't be made based on the first sentence. They used State presidential election voting to determine that "liberals donate less." That's ridiculous. I can't find any details on any of these studies and I tried. I also did my own search trying to find any source that was neutral and it's really difficult. I found one that leans liberal (L.A. Times) and it said the opposite: http://articles.latimes.com/2014/mar/31/business/la-fi-mh-conservatives-or-liberals-20140331 Quote What the MIT researchers did find, however, was that conservatives give more to religious organizations, such as their own churches, and liberals more to secular recipients. Conservatives may give more overall, MIT says, but that's because they tend to be richer, so they have more money to give and get a larger tax benefit from giving it. (One of the things that makes social scientists skeptical of the benchmark survey Brooks used, in fact, is that it somehow concluded that liberals are richer than conservatives.) The degree of religious contribution is important, because a 2007 study by Indiana University found that only 10% to 25% of church donations end up being spent on social welfare purposes, of which assistance to the poor is only a subset. In other words, if you think of "giving" as "giving to the poor," a lot of the money donated by conservatives may be missing the target. ANYHOW - At the very least I will say that the evidence is inconclusive and mine is anecdotal. 1 Link to comment
TGHusker Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 Long and short - Please everyone give as you see need. It isn't a competition. Give money but give service if at all possible. There are always opportunities. 2 Link to comment
teachercd Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 These dudes are scammers...sadly they are usually very good at what they do. Link to comment
knapplc Posted June 1, 2019 Author Share Posted June 1, 2019 We don't really have a thread dealing with televangelists per se, so this is probably as close to a good place for this as any. Televangelist Kenneth Copeland looks unhinged answering simple questions about his life of luxury. 2 Link to comment
NM11046 Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 If you all don't watch Shades of America you should start - great episode recently on Megachurches. https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/27/opinions/kamau-bell-united-shades-of-america-looks-at-megachurches/index.html Link to comment
Landlord Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 That Kenneth Copeland video almost makes me re-believe in demons and possession. 1 Link to comment
Moiraine Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 Whenever someone says “The Lord Jesus Christ” they’re almost always about to say something stupid. Those seem to be the Christians that are the most self righteous. Just say “Jesus.” Link to comment
TGHusker Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 On 6/1/2019 at 1:01 PM, knapplc said: We don't really have a thread dealing with televangelists per se, so this is probably as close to a good place for this as any. Televangelist Kenneth Copeland looks unhinged answering simple questions about his life of luxury. Saw that this morning. Sad. My hope is that false prophets like this don't steer people away from true faith in Jesus. Tulsa is the center of the 'word of faith' prosperity gospel and you see people believing and quote people like Copeland who don't have 2 nickles to rub together - thinking that if they give one of those nickles prosperity will come to them like it did the coplelands. Problem is - they don't have a 'mail list' like the copelands do. It is one big ponzi scheme of false beliefs that benefits only the one on the top. There may be seeds of truth in the message that generous people are blessed - but blessed in so many other ways and not just financially that these false preachers claim. 2 Link to comment
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