Sexism - It's a Real Thing

[Landlord]

I want to be very clear, that's not a 'woe is me' statement. I'm happy to live in the tension and effort of erring on the side of something like not getting a second date with someone vs committing an unwanted advance. All I'm trying to say is that it is confusing, and it DOES take effort (more and more of it the further we progress), and that A) A lot of men who weren't taught well or made to be conscientious about these things have never had to entertain the ideas of that effort before, and while it's an imperative that they learn, it's also easy to understand how that's met with frustration, and B) there is a very large swath of messy and nuanced stuff when it comes to sex, relationships, business transactions, power dynamics, expectations, so on and so forth, that I don't think the larger pop culture narrative is really diving into right now. 

[Moiraine]

I think he was an a-hole after they put their clothes back on, but what happened wasn't sexual assault. They performed oral sex on each other, she wasn't drunk. She was with him in his apartment before the date. She came up with him willingly. I think others have said it already but if what happened was sexual assault then a huge proportion of the population has committed sexual assault. Many of the things she mentioned that he did (like placing her hand on his manparts) are things girls like. Many would just say he was being assertive and many find that attractive. 19 times out of 20 he probably has sex with the girl in this situation. She'd given him extremely strong signals that she wanted sex over the course of the night (including letting him perform oral sex on her) and at that point hadn't told him no.

Some of the statements made with a "how awful" vibe, like that he asked her where she wanted him to f*** her, made no sense to me. That may not be romantic at all but it also doesn't make him an awful person. It makes him pretty damn normal. Especially if you're in his apartment before and after your 1st date with him. She sent every vibe she possibly could that she wanted to have sex with him, until she said she didn't. At that point he was an a-hole but he didn't assault her.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Moiraine

[Nebfanatic]

I really think the question of is it or is it not sexual assualt is the wromg question. My question is, is his behavior acceptable? To me its not, and not the behavior we want men thinking is ok. Most men think its A ok and that is a problem imo. This is the same type of behavior that can lead to sexual assualt in people with less will power. Aziz had little regard for the girls consent and likely didn't make further advances in his own self interest. That type of attitude is a nad attitide to let continue.

[Landlord]

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/15/entertainment/eliza-dushku-molestation/index.html

 

Actress Eliza Dushku has accused a famed stunt coordinator of molesting her when she was a child during filming of the 1994 movie, "True Lies."

Dushku was 12 years old when she starred as the daughter of characters played by Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jamie Lee Curtis in the film.
In a lengthy post on her official Facebook page Saturday, Dushku wrote that the stunt coordinator for the film, Joel Kramer, molested her.

 

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/joel-kramer-sexual-misconduct-new-allegations-1202664694/

 

Joel Kramer, the stunt coordinator accused of sexually assaulting Eliza Dushku when she was 12 years old, is the subject of two further allegations of misconduct.

 

According to Deadline, stuntwoman Laura Albert said in a statement that Kramer coerced a 16-year-old girl, the friend of Albert’s younger sister and who wanted to remain unnamed, into having sex while Albert was working on 1997’s “Virus” in North Carolina.

 

Another stunt woman also came forward with a new allegation against Kramer, telling Deadline that while getting a ride with Kramer from one location where the stunt crew had met for drinks to another in the late 1970s or early ’80s, he drove her into a quiet residential area. She says he then forced her to perform oral sex on him, grabbing the back of her head, and afterwards, drove her to the second location where the rest of the group had gone.

 

 

Unbelievably, this isn't getting nearly as much attention as Aziz Ansari's lousy seduction skills and is somewhat getting lost in the news cycle.

[Landlord]

21 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Aziz had little regard for the girls consent and likely didn't make further advances in his own self interest. 

 

 

According to the woman and the story which goes into quite minute and specific detail, she performed oral sex on him twice, and he also performed oral sex on her. She didn't report any forceful actions with any of this - I imagine it was consensual, because she would have clearly stated if it was otherwise. He also suggested, after her telling him she didn't want to have sex, "How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?" as well as calling her an Uber when she said she wanted to go home. 

 

He's not absolved of blame but he at least had a modicum of regard for the girl's consent? It seems he's more guilty of being horny while not being a mind reader. I don't at all doubt that she was uncomfortable and trying to give cues, but from her own account it also seems like she was giving what any reasonable person would consider to be mixed signals. Whether it's self interest or care for the other person doesn't really matter if we're talking about hookups or first dates with strangers. All sexual encounters that happen, or don't happen, on first dates are centered around self-interest. If she would have wanted to have sex, it would have been for her own self-interest.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Landlord

[teachercd]

22 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

I think he was an a-hole after they put their clothes back on, but what happened wasn't sexual assault. They performed oral sex on each other, she wasn't drunk. She was with him in his apartment before the date. She came up with him willingly. I think others have said it already but if what happened was sexual assault then a huge proportion of the population has committed sexual assault. Many of the things she mentioned that he did (like placing her hand on his manparts) are things girls like. Many would just say he was being assertive and many find that attractive. 19 times out of 20 he probably has sex with the girl in this situation. She'd given him extremely strong signals that she wanted sex over the course of the night (including letting him perform oral sex on her) and at that point hadn't told him no.

Some of the statements made with a "how awful" vibe, like that he asked her where she wanted him to f*** her, made no sense to me. That may not be romantic at all but it also doesn't make him an awful person. It makes him pretty damn normal. Especially if you're in his apartment before and after your 1st date with him. She sent every vibe she possibly could that she wanted to have sex with him, until she said she didn't. At that point he was an a-hole but he didn't assault her.

I 100% love this post.  

[ColoradoHusk]

1 hour ago, teachercd said:

Anyone else hear "smooth talker" and think of Jack Tripper and Larry at the Regal Beagle?  

I bet Larry got so much ass. 

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, ColoradoHusk said:

I bet Larry got so much ass. 

We all know jack didn’t....even though he tried. 

[Nebfanatic]

4 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

According to the woman and the story which goes into quite minute and specific detail, she performed oral sex on him twice, and he also performed oral sex on her. She didn't report any forceful actions with any of this - I imagine it was consensual, because she would have clearly stated if it was otherwise. He also suggested, after her telling him she didn't want to have sex, "How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?" as well as calling her an Uber when she said she wanted to go home. 

 

He's not absolved of blame but he at least had a modicum of regard for the girl's consent? It seems he's more guilty of being horny while not being a mind reader. Whether it's self interest or care for the other person doesn't really matter if we're talking about hookups or first dates with strangers. All sexual encounters that happen, or don't happen, on first dates are centered around self-interest. If she would have wanted to have sex, it would have been for her own self-interest.

 

“He said something along the lines of, ‘How about you hop up and take a seat?’” Within moments, he was kissing her. “In a second, his hand was on my breast.” Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated.

When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’”  

 

This is the first indication she wasn't comfortable so then he decides to go down on her instead

 

But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a f'ing game.”

 

None of this sounds too consenual

 

 

She says that most of her discomfort was expressed "in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points. I stopped moving my lips and turned cold. I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."

 

or this 

 

Eventually, Ansari then tried to bring up sex, though the woman turned him down and expressed that she didn't want to do anything sexual tonight. She says that he initially listened to her, but then resumed his previous actions. After Ansari allegedly proposed they put their clothes back on and watch TV, he "kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants," which prompted the woman to leave the apartment. 

 

 

Here she made it known she was not consenting, yet he continues anyway. I really can't believe everyone wants to rationalize his actions.

 

 

 

 

[ColoradoHusk]

2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

We all know jack didn’t....even though he tried. 

Jack was too busy tripping all over the apartment to be getting laid.

 

John Ritter was so funny.

 

Sidenote:  I always wanted to get a beagle and name him Regal.  

Edited January 16, 2018 by ColoradoHusk

[teachercd]

2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

We all know jack didn’t....even though he tried. 

What was Larry's last name?  I can't remember if they ever said it.

[ColoradoHusk]

1 minute ago, teachercd said:

What was Larry's last name?  I can't remember if they ever said it.

Larry Dallas

[Landlord]

20 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

 

“He said something along the lines of, ‘How about you hop up and take a seat?’” Within moments, he was kissing her. “In a second, his hand was on my breast.” Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated.

When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’”  

 

This is the first indication she wasn't comfortable so then he decides to go down on her instead

 

But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a f'ing game.”

 

None of this sounds too consenual

 

 

She says that most of her discomfort was expressed "in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points. I stopped moving my lips and turned cold. I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."

 

or this 

 

Eventually, Ansari then tried to bring up sex, though the woman turned him down and expressed that she didn't want to do anything sexual tonight. She says that he initially listened to her, but then resumed his previous actions. After Ansari allegedly proposed they put their clothes back on and watch TV, he "kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants," which prompted the woman to leave the apartment. 

 

 

Here she made it known she was not consenting, yet he continues anyway. I really can't believe everyone wants to rationalize his actions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not trying to rationalize it. I'm trying to fairly understand it. Her comment that she doesn't think he noticed is very revealing, I think. As is, "Grace compares Ansari’s sexual mannerisms to those of a horny, rough, entitled 18-year-old."

 

He went too far, it was manipulative and I hope he learns how to be more cognizant and treat women better.

 

At the same time, maybe we should also be having discussions about

 

1) How our celebrity worship makes people like Aziz feel invincible and like the world caters to them

 

2) That he seems less like a monster but more like a clueless child idiot

 

3) How this type of behavior is often rewarded if the woman is attracted to the guy - her response and her reaction is completely legitimate and this whole thing is a damn shame on his part, but if she was really into him, or if it was a different yet still relatively normal woman, his same actions would have resulted in a different experience

 

4) How, "guy and girl are fooling around and one isn't crazy into it, the other mostly respects that but really wants to have sex so keeps trying to nudge and suggest and hint and manipulate the other to change their mind" is an extremely, extremely common scenario that almost all of us have been in. I've been the suggester and the one being suggested to in that kind of scenario many times. Is the result that we're all monsters? If that's true, then why are we all holding everyone else to non-monster standards of expectation? Maybe that's not the point. I'm trying to figure out what it is. And I'm not speaking to you or anyone else in here with this, but there are a whole hell of a lot of people trying to paint him in a similar light as other, actually sinister and wicked, predatory men. I just don't think that's appropriate given what the woman told us, how he responded to her the day after, and how he responded after this public allegation.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Landlord

[Nebfanatic]

5 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

 

 

I'm not trying to rationalize it. I'm trying to fairly understand it. Her comment that she doesn't think he noticed is very revealing, I think. As is, "Grace compares Ansari’s sexual mannerisms to those of a horny, rough, entitled 18-year-old."

 

He went too far, it was manipulative and I hope he learns how to be more cognizant and treat women better.

 

At the same time, maybe we should also be having discussions about

 

1) How our celebrity worship makes people like Aziz feel invincible and like the world caters to them

 

2) That he seems less like a monster but more like a clueless child idiot

 

3) How this type of behavior is often rewarded if the woman is attracted to the guy - her response and her reaction is completely legitimate and this whole thing is a damn shame on his part, but if she was really into him, or if it was a different yet still relatively normal woman, his same actions would have resulted in a different experience

 

4) How, "guy and girl are fooling around and one isn't into it, the other mostly respects that but really wants to have sex so keeps trying to nudge and suggest and hint and manipulate the other to change their mind" is an extremely, extremely common scenario that almost all of us have been in. Is the result that we're all monsters, or is the result that we're all figuring this out and need to find a way to legitimate the pain and bad experiences of those who have them, while also having grace for the people (not criminals, not rapists, not assaulters) who f#*k up but own it (per her account)

I think all of these are good talking points but I think the bolded is the most important part. I don't think Aziz or people in these situations are monsters per say, but it is important to highlight this behavior as wrong. I think this situation is more important to discuss than the more severe accusations out there. Its easy to condemn the actions of Harvey Weinstien. But these situations are alot more nuanced. They are also alot more common on an everyday level, and that is why it is important we have a discussion about it and learn from it. Again this behavior isn't sexual assualt, but its the type of behavior that can lead to sexual assualt. Normalizing this behavior is detrimental to the culture we want to create where women can feel safe. This is the way things are, I understand that, but why can't we grow as a society where these types of encounters aren't a regular thing.

[Landlord]

1 minute ago, Nebfanatic said:

I think all of these are good talking points but I think the bolded is the most important part. I don't think Aziz or people in these situations are monsters per say, but it is important to highlight this behavior as wrong. I think this situation is more important to discuss than the more severe accusations out there. Its easy to condemn the actions of Harvey Weinstien. But these situations are alot more nuanced. They are also alot more common on an everyday level, and that is why it is important we have a discussion about it and learn from it. Again this behavior isn't sexual assualt, but its the type of behavior that can lead to sexual assualt. Normalizing this behavior is detrimental to the culture we want to create where women can feel safe. This is the way things are, I understand that, but why can't we grow as a society where these types of encounters aren't a regular thing.

 

 

I agree with all of this, except one thing. There is no 'normalizing' of this behavior. This behavior has been normal for a long, long time. How do we un-normalize it without condemnation for...everybody? Right or wrong, men will continue to feel more and more threatened if people's reactions of criticism/condemnation is disproportionate or lacking perspective. We need to keep tipping the scales, but we've also got to find a way to educate all parties in a way that doesn't feel like a legitimate threat.

 

At this point, the only huge difference between most men in this thread and Aziz Ansari is that we aren't famous. That doesn't make anything he did okay, at all. It's on us. But we, collectively, need to, in cases like this one (not like Weinstein and Kevin Spacey and others, obviously), not go monster hunting but be looking in the collective mirror.