Weird Time for Christians

[funhusker]

3 minutes ago, DefenderAO said:

Jesus said He was God.  Your offense is stated against Western Christians. 

 

Please share where Western Christians, and Watchman Nee, and the Bible, get it wrong.

Do you believe that reporters followed Jesus around and quoted him word for word? And these transcripts have been passed down with zero changes?

 

Simple logic also tells us Jesus is no more “God” than St Nick has elves making toys at the North Pole.  I don’t think I really need to expand too much on that point.

[DefenderAO]

7 minutes ago, funhusker said:

Do you believe that reporters followed Jesus around and quoted him word for word? And these transcripts have been passed down with zero changes?

 

Simple logic also tells us Jesus is no more “God” than St Nick has elves making toys at the North Pole.  I don’t think I really need to expand too much on that point.

 

You think just Western Christians believe the Bible as true?

 

You stated He was likely a great man...He said He was God.  Liar or elf-loving lunatics are not great men.  

 

You made your stance on p. 69.  

[RedDenver]

2 hours ago, DefenderAO said:

Jesus said He was God.

A two thousand year old book that has written decades after Jesus died and has been translated into English multiple times with a variety of versions is what claims Jesus said this.

 

We also have old texts that say Zeus was the king of the gods.

 

Not everyone find those texts to be literal truths.

[DefenderAO]

41 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

A two thousand year old book that has written decades after Jesus died and has been translated into English multiple times with a variety of versions is what claims Jesus said this.

 

We also have old texts that say Zeus was the king of the gods.

 

Not everyone find those texts to be literal truths.

 

Yes, many will dismiss Him.

 

John 6

 

 

³⁵ Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. ³⁶ But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. ³⁷ All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. ³⁸ For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. ³⁹ And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. ⁴⁰ For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

[funhusker]

On 10/28/2022 at 9:17 AM, funhusker said:

I'll admit, I have to constantly remind myself to treat Christians like folks of other faiths.

 

I left the church because it became political and reflected on what  I actually believed.  I realized I attended church because it was my tradition and nothing more.  Being asked to teach a middle school Sunday School class is what finally did me in.  I had no problem talking to little kids about how we should love and forgive each other; those are great things.  But I honestly felt like I was lying to the middle schoolers when I had to teach about Jesus resurrecting and how he'll come again.  I couldn't do it.

 

Since then, I've felt more "bitter" towards Christianity.  Probably because I feel the freedom to since I was one of them.  But even though I didn't practice Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc, I always felt it was important to respect their faiths as long as it wasn't causing harm.  I need to remind myself to do that with Christians when they say things like "praise God" etc.  

are you referring to this “stance”?

 

Hot take right here…

 

@DefenderAO, it’s completely possible and probably likely that the life of Jesus is not reflected accurately in the Bible.  Americans were actually taught George Washington cut down a cherry tree, but that also didn’t happen.

[RedDenver]

8 hours ago, DefenderAO said:

 

Yes, many will dismiss Him.

I'd guess most people dismiss Zeus.

[Lorewarn]

12 hours ago, DefenderAO said:

Jesus said He was God. 

 

 

No he didn't.

[DefenderAO]

On 5/30/2023 at 4:37 AM, funhusker said:

are you referring to this “stance”?

 

Hot take right here…

 

@DefenderAO, it’s completely possible and probably likely that the life of Jesus is not reflected accurately in the Bible.  Americans were actually taught George Washington cut down a cherry tree, but that also didn’t happen.

P.69 is your foundation from where you're positions animate.  

 

Isaiah 40:8

The grass withers, the flower fades,
    but the word of our God will stand forever.

 

 

[DefenderAO]

On 5/30/2023 at 10:16 AM, Lorewarn said:

 

 

No he didn't.

 

Jesus.  2nd Person of the Trinity.  One God.  Three Persons.

 

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was with God in the beginning. ³ Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ⁴ In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. ⁵ The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome^[a] it.

⁶ There was a man sent from God whose name was John. ⁷ He came as a witness to testifyconcerning that light, so that through him all might believe. ⁸ He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

⁹ The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. ¹⁰ He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹ He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹² Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³ children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

¹⁴ The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

John 8

 

⁴⁸ The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” ⁴⁹ Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. ⁵⁰ Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. ⁵¹ Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” ⁵² The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ ⁵³ Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” ⁵⁴ Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’^[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. ⁵⁶ Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” ⁵⁷ So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”^[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” ⁵⁹ So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

 

John 10

 

 

²² Then came the Festival of Dedication^[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, ²³ and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. ²⁴ The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

²⁵ Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, ²⁶ but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷ My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸ I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all^[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”

 

³³ The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

[DefenderAO]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:40 AM, RedDenver said:

I'd guess most people dismiss Zeus.

Good dismissal.  Zeus didn't lay his life down for the sins of the world.  

 

And isn't real.   

[RedDenver]

37 minutes ago, DefenderAO said:

Good dismissal.  Zeus didn't lay his life down for the sins of the world.  

 

And isn't real.   

Yeah, he's go more in common with Jesus than I thought.

[DefenderAO]

7 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Yeah, he's go more in common with Jesus than I thought.

You believe Jesus wasn't real?  You'd be in a vast minority of the world...    

 

This thread should be pinned as a quick reference guide to individuals' perspectives on other issues.  

 

 

[Lorewarn]

On 6/4/2023 at 2:42 PM, DefenderAO said:

 

Jesus.  2nd Person of the Trinity.  One God.  Three Persons.

 

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was with God in the beginning. ³ Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ⁴ In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. ⁵ The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome^[a] it.

⁶ There was a man sent from God whose name was John. ⁷ He came as a witness to testifyconcerning that light, so that through him all might believe. ⁸ He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

⁹ The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. ¹⁰ He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. ¹¹ He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹² Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— ¹³ children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

¹⁴ The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

John 8

 

⁴⁸ The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” ⁴⁹ Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. ⁵⁰ Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. ⁵¹ Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” ⁵² The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ ⁵³ Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” ⁵⁴ Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’^[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. ⁵⁶ Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” ⁵⁷ So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”^[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” ⁵⁹ So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

 

John 10

 

 

²² Then came the Festival of Dedication^[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, ²³ and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. ²⁴ The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

²⁵ Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, ²⁶ but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. ²⁷ My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸ I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all^[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”

 

³³ The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

 

 

 

 

John 1 is not in reference to Jesus, it is in reference to the logos.

 

John 8 is a long exchange in which the Israelites, time and time again, misunderstand Jesus and his claims (which aren't that he is god). It happens here:

 

"They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did."

 

and all over. The translators intentionally try to play fast and loose with the greek in the end to try and connect Jesus to the "I AM" of Exodus, but there's nothing actively tying that together in the original recorded language, which is already different than the original spoken language of Aramaic. While it's not clear, the likely contextual interpretation here is all centered around Jesus' increasing rebukes of his audience, who are claiming to know God by being descendents of Abraham, to which he responds that he knows God better than Abraham and better than they who have poorly followed Abraham. Regardless, separating "I am" off as if it were to meant to stand alone is an interpretive sleight-of-hand, totally distorting the role the phrase plays in the whole sentence, either in the Greek Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 or in John 8:58

 

John 10 certainly does not include Jesus calling himself God. It records him saying he is in unity with the Father (the same language of unity he uses in reference to the disciples and recorded plenty of other times), and it records the Jews claiming that he claims that, but that's not the same thing. Convenient of you to cut John 10 off at verse 33, though, since Jesus' actual words in response are:

 

"Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?  If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

 

Which is a reference to Psalm 82, saying:

 

I said, “You are gods,

sons of the Most High, all of you;

 

 

This is in reference to the judges of Israel. So literally all Jesus is saying here is if these judges can serve God and be called gods without blasphemy, why can I not claim to be the son of God (he's not claiming to be God).

 

 

 

So, no. Jesus did not say that he was God.

[knapplc]

Good riddance to this purveyor of hate.

 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

On 5/29/2023 at 10:34 PM, RedDenver said:

A two thousand year old book that has written decades after Jesus died and has been translated into English multiple times with a variety of versions is what claims Jesus said this.

 

We also have old texts that say Zeus was the king of the gods.

 

Not everyone find those texts to be literal truths.

 

Interestingly enough, devoted Christians do not agree on what the word of God or teachings of Jesus mean in modern times, not to mention who they should vote for.

 

Some Christians who get put on Ignore believe they speak for God and that God clearly wants them to maintain their personal prejudice and political alliances, even if it means twisting the words of God and Jesus to fit them.

 

Because the God they invented is all-knowing, they don't need to listen to anyone beyond the insecure voice of retribution in their head.