The forgotten American conservative & the condescending American liberal

[The Dude]

From what I can tell on facebook both sides are more or less equally condescending towards each other.

 

I'm both liberal and conservative in a lot of ways, so I just try to be condescending to everybody.

 

 

[Moiraine]

Another good one is the so-called attack on Christians' religious freedom. It's just another completely made up thing. What they want the freedom to do, when they are complaining about this, is to discriminate against others.

 

And yet another is the attack on the constitution.

[Fru]

If you think the news, Hollywood, higher education, politicians, and society as a whole are all biased against you... then maybe it's you that's the problem. 

[BigRedBuster]

This whole national conversation has been jumbled into one big hot mess.  

 

Conservatives attack on education totally baffles me.  I just don't get it.  I know people who claim this, then I ask...."So, I'm supposed to tell my kids not to go to college".  They really don't know how to answer that.  It's the typical mantra that has been promoted by propaganda that people latch onto, but don't have a clue what they are really saying.

 

As for news media, this is a phenomena that has been brought to the forefront because of cable news.  Back when there were 3 networks, I would say there was great integrity in what was watched in the evening.  But....once cable news exploded with 24 hour cycles, everyone had to fill time with opinion shows and that's where things got crazy.  Some networks probably leaned some towards the liberal side.  SO....Fox came out and went ape s#!t the other way....and....here we are.

 

As for entertainment.  People who are actors and musicians will aways tend to be much more emotional about certain things.  That's why they are good at what they do....But, it also makes them lean liberal about some issues.  The problem is, for some reason some feel they need to beat everyone over the head with their views on issues.  Sorry, if I'm going to sit down and watch an award show because I like movies, I really don't care about your political views.  This has gone over board because so many of these actors or musicians think they have a microphone in front of them so they need to  be the moral voice of society.  When in reality, many people just want them to make movies and music.  They have all the freedom in the world to voice their opinions...that's America.  But, it gets really old and everyone else has the right to criticize them or turn them off.

 

An example of this is a couple years ago we went to Chicago with some friends.  It talked the group into going to 2nd City Theatre.  I was excited about it....but....we get there and every single "comedy" skit was some liberal social lesson and making fun of conservatives.

 

Heck, I'm fairly middle of the road on many issues and I was even sick and tired of it when we left.

 

All that said, even though we all can sit around and complain and be appalled by Trump and his minions, separate from them......there are rational conservative views on issues that don't deserve to be constantly ridiculed through "entertainment".  The entertainers have all the right to do that....but, so do people who push back...and many times it's justified.

[TGHusker]

^^^ I just saw this thread &  BRB said a lot of what I would say but I'll add a bit more. 

1.  Victimization should never be in the vocabulary of a conservative.  Conservatives preach the doctrine of self determination, individual freedom, initiative to pursue dreams and success.

So if we feel victimized by 'liberal education or media' - then we need to do a better job of presenting arguments and framing the discussion but really to evaluate our belief in our own belief system - how firm are we in our own convictions.  I just watch the movie 'Amazing Grace' (highly recommend)- the story about William Wilberforce and his decades long struggle to end the slave trade in England.  He started with very little support. But he believed in the rightness of the cause and pushed through.  Reagan fought negative press, the 'peace movement' inspired by Soviet propaganda, Congress to stand firm to get a missile treaty that was favorable to the USA and better for the world.  Wilberforce nor Reagan played the victim card or the fake news card. They stood by their convictions. 

2.  Conservatism that has hitched its wagon to Trump or 'nationalism' isn't conservatism and shouldn't be considered the same - regardless of what today's politicians say/do. They do it out of political expediency - they have their finger in the air and know that Trumped had duped many voters and these politicians are going along for the ride. 

3.  As a Christian (since it was lumped into conservatism - but shouldn't be  - there are good Christians who are very liberal politically as well.) I realize that the 'world's system' often will run contrary to my beliefs, etc. But that doesn't mean I have to run and hide and point fingers and act like I'm a powerless victim. It should instead inspire me to share the gospel even more.  The gospel has thrived the best when it has been persecuted the most.   By thrived I don't mean popularity or number of adherents but by its effect on the person living it out.  People are forced to really live their faith (Love your Enemy) in those difficult times.  Here in American, Christian faith has become diluted and weak because we aren't forced to decide between faith and the state or socially popular trends.   The same is true of conservatism in my opinion.  We had Reagan, GHWB, GWB and many state govts, Congress etc turning more conservative but yet we have accepted popularity as the test of orthodoxy.  Thus when Trump won the primaries and claimed the mantle of conservatism many didn't judge it by his words and actions as whether he was a true conservative. He said it therefore he is.  But he is far from being a conservative.  

4. I just finished reading "An American Life" - Reagan's autobiography. An amazing read.  Reagan, while not agreeing to liberal influences in the media and education, would never agree to the carrying a 'victim' card. He would instead seek to educate and change minds via sound reasoning and evidences. 

5.  I agree wt BRB - with 24 hour news - so much of what is shown as news is really opinion. 

6.  I also agree that some of the media or entertainment stuff gets kind of old - but there are other options and again - it is up to conservatives to change culture by changing minds.  We are a long ways from the days of Leave it to Beaver. 

 

[Moiraine]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

As for news media, this is a phenomena that has been brought to the forefront because of cable news.  Back when there were 3 networks, I would say there was great integrity in what was watched in the evening.  But....once cable news exploded with 24 hour cycles, everyone had to fill time with opinion shows and that's where things got crazy.  Some networks probably leaned some towards the liberal side.  SO....Fox came out and went ape s#!t the other way....and....here we are.

 

 

This + the internet are almost the Whole of it. Maybe the Whole of it, period. When you can find a news source that agrees with your preconceived notions, and never hear the unadulterated truth, that's a huge problem for democracy. It makes the country vulnerable to someone like Trump.

[RedDenver]

5 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

This whole national conversation has been jumbled into one big hot mess.  

 

Conservatives attack on education totally baffles me.  I just don't get it.  I know people who claim this, then I ask...."So, I'm supposed to tell my kids not to go to college".  They really don't know how to answer that.  It's the typical mantra that has been promoted by propaganda that people latch onto, but don't have a clue what they are really saying.

 

As for news media, this is a phenomena that has been brought to the forefront because of cable news.  Back when there were 3 networks, I would say there was great integrity in what was watched in the evening.  But....once cable news exploded with 24 hour cycles, everyone had to fill time with opinion shows and that's where things got crazy.  Some networks probably leaned some towards the liberal side.  SO....Fox came out and went ape s#!t the other way....and....here we are.

 

As for entertainment.  People who are actors and musicians will aways tend to be much more emotional about certain things.  That's why they are good at what they do....But, it also makes them lean liberal about some issues.  The problem is, for some reason some feel they need to beat everyone over the head with their views on issues.  Sorry, if I'm going to sit down and watch an award show because I like movies, I really don't care about your political views.  This has gone over board because so many of these actors or musicians think they have a microphone in front of them so they need to  be the moral voice of society.  When in reality, many people just want them to make movies and music.  They have all the freedom in the world to voice their opinions...that's America.  But, it gets really old and everyone else has the right to criticize them or turn them off.

 

An example of this is a couple years ago we went to Chicago with some friends.  It talked the group into going to 2nd City Theatre.  I was excited about it....but....we get there and every single "comedy" skit was some liberal social lesson and making fun of conservatives.

 

Heck, I'm fairly middle of the road on many issues and I was even sick and tired of it when we left.

 

All that said, even though we all can sit around and complain and be appalled by Trump and his minions, separate from them......there are rational conservative views on issues that don't deserve to be constantly ridiculed through "entertainment".  The entertainers have all the right to do that....but, so do people who push back...and many times it's justified.

+1000

[Danny Bateman]

5 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

As for entertainment.  People who are actors and musicians will aways tend to be much more emotional about certain things.  That's why they are good at what they do....But, it also makes them lean liberal about some issues.  The problem is, for some reason some feel they need to beat everyone over the head with their views on issues.  Sorry, if I'm going to sit down and watch an award show because I like movies, I really don't care about your political views.  This has gone over board because so many of these actors or musicians think they have a microphone in front of them so they need to  be the moral voice of society.  When in reality, many people just want them to make movies and music.  They have all the freedom in the world to voice their opinions...that's America.  But, it gets really old and everyone else has the right to criticize them or turn them off.

 

 

 

As a whole, our fetishization about what celebrities think or have to say about a lot of things is really weird. I've never understood it. I'm not one to say stay in your lane, but geez, I don't really care any more about what the Boss or Bono has to say about politics than I do Kanye or Ted Nugget or Rosanne. They're given a unique platform and it's great if they use it for good, but I've never understood why people really care about every inane little piece of news about celebrities, including their political statements. 

As for the rest... well said. 

[Danny Bateman]

4 hours ago, TGHusker said:

^^^ I just saw this thread &  BRB said a lot of what I would say but I'll add a bit more. 

1.  Victimization should never be in the vocabulary of a conservative.  Conservatives preach the doctrine of self determination, individual freedom, initiative to pursue dreams and success.

So if we feel victimized by 'liberal education or media' - then we need to do a better job of presenting arguments and framing the discussion but really to evaluate our belief in our own belief system - how firm are we in our own convictions.  I just watch the movie 'Amazing Grace' (highly recommend)- the story about William Wilberforce and his decades long struggle to end the slave trade in England.  He started with very little support. But he believed in the rightness of the cause and pushed through.  Reagan fought negative press, the 'peace movement' inspired by Soviet propaganda, Congress to stand firm to get a missile treaty that was favorable to the USA and better for the world.  Wilberforce nor Reagan played the victim card or the fake news card. They stood by their convictions. 

2.  Conservatism that has hitched its wagon to Trump or 'nationalism' isn't conservatism and shouldn't be considered the same - regardless of what today's politicians say/do. They do it out of political expediency - they have their finger in the air and know that Trumped had duped many voters and these politicians are going along for the ride. 

3.  As a Christian (since it was lumped into conservatism - but shouldn't be  - there are good Christians who are very liberal politically as well.) I realize that the 'world's system' often will run contrary to my beliefs, etc. But that doesn't mean I have to run and hide and point fingers and act like I'm a powerless victim. It should instead inspire me to share the gospel even more.  The gospel has thrived the best when it has been persecuted the most.   By thrived I don't mean popularity or number of adherents but by its effect on the person living it out.  People are forced to really live their faith (Love your Enemy) in those difficult times.  Here in American, Christian faith has become diluted and weak because we aren't forced to decide between faith and the state or socially popular trends.   The same is true of conservatism in my opinion.  We had Reagan, GHWB, GWB and many state govts, Congress etc turning more conservative but yet we have accepted popularity as the test of orthodoxy.  Thus when Trump won the primaries and claimed the mantle of conservatism many didn't judge it by his words and actions as whether he was a true conservative. He said it therefore he is.  But he is far from being a conservative.  

4. I just finished reading "An American Life" - Reagan's autobiography. An amazing read.  Reagan, while not agreeing to liberal influences in the media and education, would never agree to the carrying a 'victim' card. He would instead seek to educate and change minds via sound reasoning and evidences. 

5.  I agree wt BRB - with 24 hour news - so much of what is shown as news is really opinion. 

6.  I also agree that some of the media or entertainment stuff gets kind of old - but there are other options and again - it is up to conservatives to change culture by changing minds.  We are a long ways from the days of Leave it to Beaver. 

 

 

The bolded... Wow, REALLY well said. That's the most concise summary of what's wrong with the GOP's motivations I've come across. The moment the majority of our politicians decided they cared more about their own personal power than doing what's best for the country & its people was the day our democracy started to crumble.

 

I might have to look into Reagan's biography. I certainly don't look up to him like a conservative would, but there is no doubt he represented America well. Do you have any advice on other good conservative literature to look into? I'm always looking to add new stuff to my reading backlog.

[Making Chimichangas]

@Clifford Franklin...

 

I think conservative claims that they are attacked or misrepresented by media, hollywood. etc is largely a figment of their paranoid brains.  Is there a tiny bit of attacking and misrepresentaion?  I'm sure there is a tiny bit, because to say there is none whatsoever just doesn't feel intellectually honest.    However, conservatives today, specifically pro-Trump-conservatives, equate anyone who questions them, or any of their beliefs, as attacking them.  As an example of this, certain christians feel there is a "war" against Christianity in America.  I recently asked someone who said, and I quote, "There is a demonic war being waged against Christianity!  We are under attack for being Christians!"  I simply asked the person the following questions: 1) Who is preventing you from believing in god?  2) Who is preventing you from going to church?  3) Who has told you that you can no longer pray?  4) Who has told you to give up your faith or suffer consequences?  Of course she couldn't answer any of these questions because it simply is not happening. 

 

As far as white liberals being condescending...I'm sure there are.  However, such things don't occur in a vacuum.  How many times have liberals been called: libtards, communists, socialists, America-hating, etc...simply because we openly disagree with a conservative?  I know I have experienced it plenty.  Also, I have found on other sites that by demanding conservatives provide proof for their claim that doesn't come from Brietbart or FoxNews is the fastest way to get them to call me a moronic libtard or some other colorful names. 

 

The ignoring whites part of the discussion is where we start getting into the very real, ugly, and white nationalist/nazi elements within the Republican party.  Funny how white hate groups like the kkk and aryan nation used to primarily democrats.  Now, thanks to the Republican establishment's thirst for more power, they've allowed white-hate into the ranks.  This is where I first heard of the term, "white genocide."  The bigots use the term "white genocide" to describe any situation where they believe white people are being marginalized.  To give you a good idea on what I am talking about here, please go to YouTube and search for the trailer for the upcoming movie BlackkKlansman.  Watch the trailer if you want, it looks like a comedy noir.  But go down to the comments and read what certain people are saying.  I would try to explain it, but the sheer lunacy of their beliefs and what they think is happening, I don't think I can adequately explain.

 

Finally, I think conservatives largely do the largest disservice to themselves.  When Mike Pence, Mike Huckabee, Ted Cruz, or some other prominent Republican says something incredibly racist, anti-lbgtqia, xenophobic, etc...the over-whelming majority of Republicans stay quiet and do not speak out and tell said offender you're wrong and you don't speak for us.  So, fair or not, the entire (R) party gets painted with that brush.  And it doesn't help that in the states of Oklahoma and Kansas that Republicans just passed legialation that completely prohibts lbgtqia people from adopting kids.  These are actions that Republicans are doing themselves without any pressure or prompting.  And yet, they cannot figure out why they're largely viewed as racist, intolerant, bigots.  It is like I just want to ask some of these people, "Do you actually hear the words coming out of your mouth?"

[TGHusker]

11 hours ago, Clifford Franklin said:

 

The bolded... Wow, REALLY well said. That's the most concise summary of what's wrong with the GOP's motivations I've come across. The moment the majority of our politicians decided they cared more about their own personal power than doing what's best for the country & its people was the day our democracy started to crumble.

 

I might have to look into Reagan's biography. I certainly don't look up to him like a conservative would, but there is no doubt he represented America well. Do you have any advice on other good conservative literature to look into? I'm always looking to add new stuff to my reading backlog.

 

11 hours ago, Clifford Franklin said:

 

The bolded... Wow, REALLY well said. That's the most concise summary of what's wrong with the GOP's motivations I've come across. The moment the majority of our politicians decided they cared more about their own personal power than doing what's best for the country & its people was the day our democracy started to crumble.

 

I might have to look into Reagan's biography. I certainly don't look up to him like a conservative would, but there is no doubt he represented America well. Do you have any advice on other good conservative literature to look into? I'm always looking to add new stuff to my reading backlog.

Personally, I have not read all of these but I have seen them referenced many times -  The conservative book club has all kinds of books - some I would support and some I would not.    Some are not specifically  conservative but reinforce some of the tenets of conservative policy.  I try to avoid reading fire brand people - like Ann Coulter etc.  I come close with Mark Levin - who is better to read than to listen too (too negative and verbal attacking of others) But he has written a very good book on defining the difference between liberals and conservative "Liberty and Tyranny"

But I would start with Reagan.  Why - because he was the closest in living it out politically.  He would be consider a 'moderate' in today's world - which I am all for.  His autobiography gives good insight into the conservative mind and esp in regards to freedom, anti-communism, and a restrained govt. His speeches would give a clear idea as well of his views.  I have read all of these books and more on Reagan.   Here is a list.   

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/books?search=reagan

 

 

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/reagan-in-his-own-hand-the-writings-of-ronald-reagan-that-reveal-his-revolutionary-vision-for-america

Hidden in the archives of the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library for more than a decade, the writings contained in Reagan, In His Own Hand redefine the way we think about American history of the past quarter century and about the fortieth American president. By revealing an active mind wrestling with the problems of a sluggish economy, social pathologies, welfare reform, and the Cold War struggle with the Soviet Union, these never-before-seen documents, many reproduced in his own handwriting, prove Reagan to be both the visionary and intellectual powerhouse behind his administration’s landmark policies.

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/reagans-war-the-epic-story-of-his-forty-year-struggle-and-final-triumph-over-communism

A meticulously researched and penetrating analysis of the Cold War, and the man who ended it. Peter Schweizer delves into the origins of Ronald Reagan’s vision of America, and documents his consistent, aggressive belief in confronting the Soviet Union diplomatically, economically, and militarily.
Ronald Reagan is often dismissed as an “amiable dunce,” a genial actor who simply mouthed whatever slogans his right-wing puppet masters put in front of him. Reagan’s War brilliantly overturns this myth. Drawing on private diaries dating from Reagan’s days as an actor and extending through his presidency, Peter Schweizer, a well-known historian of the Cold War, shows that Reagan’s fervent anticommunism marked every era of his life and was the driving force behind his policies as president.

Schweizer explores Reagan’s involvement with anticommunist liberals in Hollywood and his role as a secret informer for the FBI. Reagan’s outspoken criticism of d?tente in the late 1960s and his forceful advocacy for the overthrow of the USSR drew the attention of Soviet officials, who began a KGB file on him when he was still governor of California. By the time he was elected president, they viewed him as a serious threat to their interests. Reagan’s War shows just how right they were, presenting compelling evidence that Reagan personally mapped out and directed a campaign to bankrupt the Soviet Union and wage an economic and political war against Moscow.

In telling the story of Reagan’s ultimate triumph, Schweizer also brings to light dozens of previously unknown facts about the Cold War, based on secret documents obtained from archives in Russia, Germany, Poland, Hungary, and the United States. Among his many startling revelations are Kissinger’s private deals with Soviet leaders that protected his own political viability while allowing the Soviets to pursue their goals within their own sphere; a North Korean and East German plot to assassinate Reagan in 1983; Reagan’s secret funding of Solidarity in Poland; and the behind-the-scenes support Soviets and East Germans provided for European and American peace movements, as well as their clandestine contacts with U.S. government officials.

A fresh, often startling look at Ronald Reagan and his central role in winning the war for global dominance in the 1980s, Reagan’s War is a major work of twentieth-century history.

 

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/american-life-autobiography

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/the-last-best-hope-the-greatest-speeches-of-ronald-reagan

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/reagan-diaries

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/when-character-was-king-a-story-of-ronald-reagan

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/last-act-the-final-years-and-emerging-legacy-of-ronald-reagan

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/age-reagan-conservative-counterrevolution-1980-1989

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/the-age-of-reagan-fall-old-liberal-order

Some of the below are academic in nature.

 

https://www.conservativebookclub.com/book/liberty-and-tyranny-a-conservative-manifesto

offers a sound conservative vision — and maintains that conservatism is not just a political perspective, but a way of understanding life, society, and governance. Levin offers a solid historical overview of the Founding Fathers’ view of civil society, liberty, the dignity of the individual, and shows how these views were enshrined in the Constitution. With illuminating erudition and his customary wit, Levin explains the true nature of progress

The Quest For Cosmic Justice by Thomas Sowell

A fantastic explanation of just why the left’s obsession with the collective springs from a need to deny the validity of reality.

 

The Law by Frederic Bastiat

In this 1850 classic, a powerful refutation of Karl Marx’s Communist Manifesto, Bastiat discusses: what is law?, why socialism constitutes legal plunder, the proper function of the law, the law and morality, “the vicious circle of socialism”, and the basis for stable government.

 

Radical Son by David Horowitz

Born and raised a radical socialist before becoming a major player in the New Left, David Horowitz recounts how he moved from one set of political convictions to another over the course of thirty years, and challenges readers to consider how they came by their own convictions.

Up From Liberalism, 1959 William F. Buckley, Jr.

Some   books  from this website which gives a summary of each. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/top-conservative-books-2013-3

"The Conscience of a Conservative" by Barry Goldwater

"Free To Choose: A Personal Statement" by Milton and Rose Friedman

"God and Man at Yale: The Superstitions of 'Academic Freedom'" by William F. Buckley, Jr.

"The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Santayana" by Russell Kirk

"Democracy in America" by Alexis de Tocqueville 

The Federalist Papers

"The Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich von Hayek

"On Liberty" by John Stuart Mill

 

 

[Redux]

I feel discriminated against as a registered independent, my voting ballot is half the size of Repubs or Dems.

 

And yes the media mostly leans heavily liberal while a bit still leans heavily conservative and no media outlets actually report anything newsworthy without a steaming pile of mouth diharehea biased opinion.

[TGHusker]

35 minutes ago, Redux said:

I feel discriminated against as a registered independent, my voting ballot is half the size of Repubs or Dems.

 

And yes the media mostly leans heavily liberal while a bit still leans heavily conservative and no media outlets actually report anything newsworthy without a steaming pile of mouth diharehea biased opinion.

[RedDenver]

3 hours ago, Redux said:

I feel discriminated against as a registered independent, my voting ballot is half the size of Repubs or Dems.

Colorado now let's anyone vote in any one primary regardless of registered affiliation (I think it just started this year, or maybe last year). I can vote for either the Dem or Repub primary but not both. Interesting to see how this plays out, but it might be worth doing in other states.

[Making Chimichangas]

You know what I'd like to do?  Start a new political movement called "The Independent Party."  It's for people who are essentially purple...not red, not blue--but a mix.  Because conservatives do have some great ideas and so do liberals, but neither side has all the answers.

 

For example, pertaining to regulations, Republicans want zero and Democrats want too much.  Neither option works.  My solution?  Make a regulation, but let businesses decide how best to comply. 

 

Government Regulation: Regarding waste disposal, dispose of it safely, properly, and in a way which protects the environment.

 

Notice that government is telling businesses they must dispose of their waste properly to protect the environment, but there is no long, 1,000 page manual spelling out how it is to be done.  Instead, let businesses figure out a way which works best for them.  Just my two pennies.  And it's probably too simple of an approach to actually work.