Police Reform

[knapplc]

Congratulations on the promotion, @BIGREDIOWAN !!!

 

(please don't ban me for this )

 

 

 

[Nebfanatic]

On 7/14/2020 at 6:46 PM, BigRedBuster said:

Ok....so why aren’t both sides working together to figure out how to reduce this?

 

The way it is, one side is outraged and the other side is.....well....see.....we get killed a lot so you should be happy. 
 

WTF????

 

 

 

Thats always been such a stupid argument to me. Putting demographics in America aside, isn't saying well it happens to more whites acknowledging there is a problem with the way we police in this country? Obviously there is cultural differences, but our police force kills far more people than most other first world countries. Maybe we can police without as much of that. 

[RedDenver]

Some links to police reform ideas:

 

[Moiraine]

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2020/07/29/lapd-officers-gang-records-criminal-cases/?fbclid=IwAR2DzvWTqOxxgiRPyI2QCiNcoYxl3vX4U-2ip0w6_5cKH6E8P6hunkT-1pc

 

 

Quote

 

The officers were assigned at the time to the LAPD’s Metropolitan Division when they allegedly falsified field interview cards and misidentified dozens of people who were stopped by the officers as gang members.

Prosecutors say that some of the false information written in the cards was used to wrongfully enter people into California’s gang database.

The alleged misconduct would disrupt criminal cases against as many as 750 defendants, according to reporting by the L.A. Times that was confirmed by the D.A.’s office.

“There could be some cases out there where there are wrongful convictions,” said L.A. District Attorney Jackie Lacey. “When you’re charged with a crime like that, where it’s alleged that you lied, your credibility becomes an issue and every case you ever touched in terms of a witness now has to be reviewed.”

...

The LAPD has said there are 21 other officers under investigation for the completion of field interview cards, which could put the decisions in thousands of criminal cases at stake. 

 

 

[DevoHusker]

 

https://apnews.com/    Proposal to disband Minneapolis Police Department blocked from November ballot. 

 

Members of the Charter Commission expressed concern that the process to change the city’s charter was being rushed after Floyd died following an encounter with police. While several commissioners said changing the Police Department was necessary, they said the amendment before them was flawed. Several said it faced legal barriers, was created without input from key community members who oppose it, and that it gave too much power to the City Council.

[DevoHusker]

10 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

The police, who have guns and can pull the trigger and not have to deal with the consequences of that action via qualified immunity can literally get away with murder...and they think that City Council has too much power?

 

 

other Council members said that ...

 

edit: members of the Charter Commission

Edited August 6, 2020 by DevoHusker
i found correct answer

[teachercd]

Seattle votes to defund police...

 

Good thinking since CHAZ went so well without police.  

[teachercd]

Curfew brought back for Chicago, bridges are up as well.  Major looting there again. 

[ZRod]

Anybody watch the newly released body cam footage from George Floyd's death? I only watched the first 10 or 15 minutes, but it doesn't seem like any reasonable person could charge the original responding officers with 1st or 2nd degree murder. Floyd said almost everything in the book prior to ending up on the ground. "I've been shot by cops before", "my mom died", "my wrist hurts", "I'm claustrophobic". All those sound like someone trying to get out of a predicament. He keeps falling and isn't very compliant to the officer commands from the start. He appears to be noncompliant the entire time.

 

The real issue here is the knee, and the lack of police ever trying to descalate the situation. Floyd seems to be crying wolf through the whole incident which doesn't help, but officers should still listen to what a suspect is telling them. If he says he's claustrophobic then keep him on the street in front of you like you did to begin with. Why do you need to wind him up even more by shoving him into the squad car?

[teachercd]

10 minutes ago, ZRod said:

Anybody watch the newly released body cam photage from George Floyd's death? I only watched the first 10 or 15 minutes, but it doesn't seem like any reasonable person could charge the original responding officers with 1st or 2nd degree murder. Floyd said almost everything in the book prior to ending up on the ground. "I've been shot by cops before", "my mom died", "my wrist hurts", "I'm claustrophobic". All those sound like someone trying to get out of a predicament. He keeps falling and isn't very compliant to the officer commands from the start. He appears to be noncompliant the entire time.

 

The real issue here is the knee, and the lack of police ever trying to descalate the situation. Floyd seems to be crying wolf through the whole incident which doesn't help, but officers should still listen to what a suspect is telling them. If he says he's claustrophobic then keep him on the street in front of you like you did to begin with. Why do you need to wind him up even more by shoving him into the squad car?

Yes and I agree.  

[DevoHusker]

24 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

I agree that he did himself no favors.  But it didn't warrant the level of violence that he got from police...nothing warrants that level.

 

I mean, it took 13 seconds from when he tapped on the window for him to pull his gun out. 

 

That is escalation that isn't needed...ever...anywhere.

 

Tell that to the widows/children/families of these 32 folks https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-officers-killed-surge-28-year-point-civil/story?id=71773405

[ZRod]

44 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

I agree that he did himself no favors.  But it didn't warrant the level of violence that he got from police...nothing warrants that level.

 

I mean, it took 13 seconds from when he tapped on the window for him to pull his gun out. 

 

That is escalation that isn't needed...ever...anywhere.

 

14 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

I don't have to...it's not my responsibility to do so.  I do feel bad for any loss of life, regardless which "side" its on but you posting this adds literally nothing to what we were discussing.

 

Escalation of any kind by a police officer in the first 15 seconds of an encounter is wrong...especially over  a 20 dollar bill that might be counterfeit that a person might have unknowingly passed into circulation.  15 seconds isn't enough time to determine anything at all. 

I don't necessarily agree with this. The cops just walked up on two people in a car and one of them is not following commands, and moving around erratically. They don't know if he has a gun or not and they are in a vulnerable spot. Maybe he could have unholstered his gun and not pointed it, but he still needs to be prepared until he has fully assessed the situation (and you splitting hairs at that point).

 

Once they get Floyd to somewhat follow commands he holsters his weapon.

[ZRod]

8 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

 

Damage already done.  You can holster the weapon but it doesn't de-escalate a situation.  Believe me, I've had a gun pulled on me by a police officer before because I took pictures in public...his escalation could not be de-escalated.  Just my experience on the matter...fight or flight kicks in as a natural response and adrenaline rules.

Probably not the same situation though, right? Did you act erratic in a space where most of your body and any objections near you weren't visible? Were your hands in and out of view? If I can fully see you, you don't have a visible weapon, and you seem to respond to verbal cues there is absolutely no reason to draw a weapon; however that wasn't this. Officers still have a right to self defense. When your erratic, not following commands, and they can't see if you have any weapons I think it's justified to draw a weapon until the situation is fully under control.

[ZRod]

4 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

Not the same situation but escalation without provocation happens all the time with police.  Especially with people of color.  My point isn't to discuss each and every situation and pros/cons of each...but rather to draw attention to the fact that Floyd's situation was escalated within 15 seconds.  Never a good sign and prejudicial by the police officer.

You don't see any reasonable situation where an officer can draw a weapon without prejudice because a suspect is not in plain view, they do not know if the suspect has a weapon on them or near them, the suspect is not following commands, and the suspect is acting erratically?

[ZRod]

22 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

I don't see how drawing your weapon 15 seconds into a situation benefits anyone unless the suspect is holding a gun.

 

If the suspect is acting erratically, they may have mental problems and require a different resource to assist.  Making a determination that because you can't see someones hands that they're immediately going for a gun or because they are confused or scared that they are going to hurt you is escalation pure and simple.

But you can't see if he's holding/grabbing a gun. You're asking them to use a different approach for a mental issue, which would take quite awhile to understand, but not really considering that they are using a different approach because the suspect isn't acting normal and they are in a vulnerable position. He could have waited another second or two, but when you open a door on a cop and don't follow his orders it puts them in a very exposed position. 

 

Tone matters too, and the cop came in rather agressive.