Biden Foreign Policy

[nic]

6 hours ago, knapplc said:

 

 

This never fails to terrify Fox viewers.

 

We've had migrant caravans heading our way for decades. What damage have they done?

It's not safe to them or people around our border.  We need  a way to have them migrate safely and orderly. 

[Lorewarn]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

That’s quite the dipsy do there.  I think most people want continued immigration.  And the smart ones want to seal up the border at the same time.  You see, it’s actually possible to do both things at the same time.  It’s not an either or proposition. 

 

 

There's a very compelling argument that sealing up the border has actually made things much worse. 

 

A few decades ago most people illegally crossing the border only did so seasonally for work, and then headed back home. Clinton's IIRIRA bill, designed to cut down on illegal immigration, ballooned the problem and backfired horribly. There were a lot of parts to it, but the 3 and 10 year bars (if you'd lived here undocumented 6 months or more, you had to leave and be barred for 3 years before applying for lawful citizenship, if for more than 1 year, same thing but barred for 10 years). This even applied retroactively to people married to US citizens, people with work visas, sponsored by family, etc. 

 

The idea was the punishments would be so severe to deter people doing it, but as we see all the time, punishment is not a deterrent, and it instead just incentivized people to stay undocumented. Undocumented people were about 50% likely to return back to Mexico before 1996, and now there's a nearly 0% statistical likelihood of them leaving. Number of undocumented immigrants has also more than doubled since then.

[Danny Bateman]

1 hour ago, nic said:

It's not safe to them or people around our border.  We need  a way to have them migrate safely and orderly. 

 

Hint: Neither is where they live!

 

You think people would rather live in refugee camps around the border just for the sense of community and beautiful scenery?

[BigRedBuster]

17 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

That’s quite the dipsy do there.  I think most people want continued immigration.  And the smart ones want to seal up the border at the same time.  You see, it’s actually possible to do both things at the same time.  It’s not an either or proposition. 

Then why hasn’t either party done both?  Trump had 4 years to go both and all we heard was about building the wall to keep those dirty sick dangerous brown people out. 
 

Where was the other side of the equation?  
 

Now, we still don’t have it.  
 

 

[Archy1221]

30 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Then why hasn’t either party done both?  Trump had 4 years to go both and all we heard was about building the wall to keep those dirty sick dangerous brown people out. 
 

Where was the other side of the equation?  
 

Now, we still don’t have it.  
 

 

Reagan did amnesty and we never got around to security.  Is that the side you speak of.  
 

And please stop calling those people dirty sick dangerous brown people.  Not all of them are criminals.  
 

finish the wall and expand the immigration court system. 

[BigRedBuster]

3 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Reagan did amnesty and we never got around to security.  Is that the side you speak of.  

That was what, 35 years ago?  And that was temporary.  Nobody has changed anything long term. 
 

5 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

please stop calling those people dirty sick dangerous brown people.  Not all of them are criminals.  

Tell that to Trump, Tucker and their followers. 
 

6 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

nish the wall and expand the immigration court system. 

Why wasn’t the second part being done the last 5 years?  We’re we waiting for Mexico’s check god the wall?

[Archy1221]

14 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

21 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

 

That was what, 35 years ago?  And that was temporary.  Nobody has changed anything long term. 

 But wait, you said when do we get the other side of it.  I just showed you and the response I get is well that was 35 yrs ago.  Sure, but until Trump, the security part was hardly addressed.  How do we know this??  Because of the yearly inflow of mass illegal immigration.   
 

16 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Why wasn’t the second part being done the last 5 years?

Maybe people finally learned a lesson and now know that unless security gets done first, it will never get done.  

[Lorewarn]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

Sure, but until Trump, the security part was hardly addressed.  How do we know this??  Because of the yearly inflow of mass illegal immigration.   

 

There's no documented correlation or causation between rate of illegal immigration and how much or how little we have addressed security. 

 

Our government has done a lot to address security. Operation Hold the Line, Operation Gatekeeper, anti smuggling units, BORSTAR, the BSI, formation of ICE, the DHS, etc. All within the last 30 years. Not to mention Border Security spending has gone from $263 million to $5 billion since 1990.

[BigRedBuster]

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

Maybe people finally learned a lesson and now know that unless security gets done first, it will never get done.  

You said we can do both at the same time. 

 

2 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

But wait, you said when do we get the other side of it.  I just showed you and the response I get is well that was 35 yrs ago.  Sure, but until Trump, the security part was hardly addressed.  How do we know this??  Because of the yearly inflow of mass illegal immigration.  

Where is the long term solution. A one time thing doesn’t  cut it. 

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

Where is the long term solution. A one time thing doesn’t  cut it.

What’s the long term solution to border security that actually helps the problem? 

[nic]

22 hours ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

Hint: Neither is where they live!

 

You think people would rather live in refugee camps around the border just for the sense of community and beautiful scenery?

Good point, but we also can't have people just coming over the border, especially during a pandemic.

[Lorewarn]

6 hours ago, Archy1221 said:

What’s the long term solution to border security that actually helps the problem? 

 

 

Creating less incentive to cross or stay illegally and creating more incentive to be able to get access legally.

[Danny Bateman]

19 hours ago, Lorewarn said:

Creating less incentive to cross or stay illegally and creating more incentive to be able to get access legally.

 

Net immigration from Mexico had been negative (meaning more immigrated from here to there) for a decade+ before reversing the trend between 2013 and 2018.

 

But to the meat of your point - I don't think either side cares to actually craft workable solutions to this issue in sufficient numbers. The electoral incentive just isn't there when you can instead talk a big game and keep it a wedge issue. 

 

But as you said, actually fixing the problem would require incredibly difficult solutions that aren't popular with voters, like reforming the immigration court system and sending resources to Central America in a broader effort to stabilize those countries. 

 

The border security part is easy because clearly both sides agree on that. That IS popular. The debate is just how far to go or rather how draconian and hardline to get. Unfortunately for a lot of conservatives the cruelty is the point and the most drastic methods are required to make them think we are doing anything at all.

 

 

[nic]

Go figure.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/us-and-mexico-reach-deal-to-restart-trump-era-remain-in-mexico-program-along-border/2021/12/01/381a4190-5318-11ec-8ad5-b5c50c1fb4d9_story.html

 

[Archy1221]