Judge: Mass. must pay for killer's sex change

[Ziggy]

My problem with it is this, if this person can find a psychologist to say they need this procedure, it leave the door open for inmates to demand single cells, more outside time, TV, any number of demands that they can "prove" will help keep them from insanity. The legal system is a joke when it comes to punishment of law breakers.

[ZRod]

The medical professionals opinion on medical necessity is the crucial factor. You may disagree with their analysis . . . but I'd venture a guess that they're a bit more knowledgeable about the subject than you or I.

 

I do. God help me, but I cannot stop the belief that this kind of thing is more mania than medical. I know we've had this conversation on HuskerBoard before and there were some lengthy posts in support of gender identity disorder, but I still don't buy it. This is one I'm not going to trust the doctors on. If someone suddenly became convinced they were a leopard, would psychiatrists recommend genetic modification to add a tail and claws and spots? To me it's the same thing, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone with that statement.

Well I respect your opinion but I would have to counter that the mind can be a strange thing. And in some ways it could be similar to how some people view being gay, you don't choose it it's just the feeling you have. But I would offer up another disorder for you to think about, body integrity identity disorder. Essentially the person feels the need to amputate an appendage, even though they maybe completely healthy. The only reason I've heard of it is because it was on Nat Geo's Taboo. These people are so possessed that many appear in public as "amputees" and some actually attempt self amputation and are successful.

[Enhance]

Well I respect your opinion but I would have to counter that the mind can be a strange thing. And in some ways it could be similar to how some people view being gay, you don't choose it it's just the feeling you have. But I would offer up another disorder for you to think about, body integrity identity disorder. Essentially the person feels the need to amputee an appendage, even though they maybe be completely healthy. The only reason I've heard of it is because it was on Nat Geo's Taboo. These people are so possessed that many appear in public as "amputees" and some actually attempt self amputation and are successful.

I agree with this. The plethora of anomalies that occur in the human brain make it seem only natural that some people out there may feel like they are members of the opposite sex and are stuck in the incorrect body. Therefore, denying a human being the right to undergo a procedure that will make them feel mentally at-ease is cruel.

 

My largest issue with this is that he's a convicted killer. If he were not a felon, I'd be all for this. It's extremely difficult for me to justify giving a man who took the life of another human being the right to improve his own life. A lot of people see this as a basic human rights issue - his human rights. Personally, I don't think anyone who intentionally ends the life of another human deserves full human rights. Unfortunately, it would then become an issue of where do you draw the line.

[ZRod]

Yeah, I'm not comfortable commenting on this case because I honestly don't know how I feel about it. On the one hand they shouldn't be exposed to cruel and unusual punishment, and this could fall under some kind of mental punishment. But on the other; they ended someone else's life and basically signed away their rights to enjoy a pleasurable meaningful life. The one thing I do know is I don't think the tax payer needs to be footing the bill here. Maybe if the inmate could some how afford it I wouldn't care, but I think im with Enhance here, if you are serving a life sentence without parole or any chance of release I'm not so sure you should be receiving this procedure. I'm not sure you should be receiving medical attention at all unless it affects the rest of the prison population in some way.

[NUance]

Okay, I'm a little late to this debate party, but it occurs to me that being incarcerated necessarily means that you'll lose some of your rights that would otherwise be constitutionally protected. Like your constitutional right to vote. And your constitutional right to get your dick cut off.

[Comish]

Logic becomes an afterthought when the legal system gets churning.

 

Why do they fuss over sterilizing the needle when applying the death penalty via injection ??

[carlfense]

Logic becomes an afterthought when the legal system gets churning.

 

Why do they fuss over sterilizing the needle when applying the death penalty via injection ??

It's not too hard to come up with a logical reason for that . . . and it's definitely not out of concern for the criminal.

[knapplc]

Well I respect your opinion but I would have to counter that the mind can be a strange thing. And in some ways it could be similar to how some people view being gay, you don't choose it it's just the feeling you have. But I would offer up another disorder for you to think about, body integrity identity disorder. Essentially the person feels the need to amputee an appendage, even though they maybe be completely healthy. The only reason I've heard of it is because it was on Nat Geo's Taboo. These people are so possessed that many appear in public as "amputees" and some actually attempt self amputation and are successful.

I agree with this. The plethora of anomalies that occur in the human brain make it seem only natural that some people out there may feel like they are members of the opposite sex and are stuck in the incorrect body. Therefore, denying a human being the right to undergo a procedure that will make them feel mentally at-ease is cruel.

 

My largest issue with this is that he's a convicted killer. If he were not a felon, I'd be all for this. It's extremely difficult for me to justify giving a man who took the life of another human being the right to improve his own life. A lot of people see this as a basic human rights issue - his human rights. Personally, I don't think anyone who intentionally ends the life of another human deserves full human rights. Unfortunately, it would then become an issue of where do you draw the line.

 

I'm in agreement with this, but why treat this condition by modifying the body to match the brain anomaly? Why not try to fix the brain anomaly? That seems a more "correct" way to fix this issue.

[sd'sker]

Well I respect your opinion but I would have to counter that the mind can be a strange thing. And in some ways it could be similar to how some people view being gay, you don't choose it it's just the feeling you have. But I would offer up another disorder for you to think about, body integrity identity disorder. Essentially the person feels the need to amputee an appendage, even though they maybe be completely healthy. The only reason I've heard of it is because it was on Nat Geo's Taboo. These people are so possessed that many appear in public as "amputees" and some actually attempt self amputation and are successful.

I agree with this. The plethora of anomalies that occur in the human brain make it seem only natural that some people out there may feel like they are members of the opposite sex and are stuck in the incorrect body. Therefore, denying a human being the right to undergo a procedure that will make them feel mentally at-ease is cruel.

 

My largest issue with this is that he's a convicted killer. If he were not a felon, I'd be all for this. It's extremely difficult for me to justify giving a man who took the life of another human being the right to improve his own life. A lot of people see this as a basic human rights issue - his human rights. Personally, I don't think anyone who intentionally ends the life of another human deserves full human rights. Unfortunately, it would then become an issue of where do you draw the line.

 

I'm in agreement with this, but why treat this condition by modifying the body to match the brain anomaly? Why not try to fix the brain anomaly? That seems a more "correct" way to fix this issue.

i think a large problem with this issue is just the overwhelming lack of knowledge of how to handle these cases and the lack of awareness in the general public of this problem and the possible solutions. very hard to judge what is necessary and proper and i do not envy the judge having to make the decision. it must have been very complex and a judge's greatest fear is to be appealed, so given the laws and facts, the judge must have made the safest decision, i would imagine.

[ZRod]

I'm in agreement with this, but why treat this condition by modifying the body to match the brain anomaly? Why not try to fix the brain anomaly? That seems a more "correct" way to fix this issue.

i think a large problem with this issue is just the overwhelming lack of knowledge of how to handle these cases and the lack of awareness in the general public of this problem and the possible solutions.

Knap I think sd hit the nail on the head. There just isn't enough knowledge out there. I mean even 20 or 30 years ago you would have probably just been considered mentally unstable or crazy, but now we are learning there is more to these issues. I guess I would go back to another homosexuality example again, (this is purely anecdotal so take it as you please) just from what I've heard and read it seems like when you try to "treat" the person it can lead to them feeling even more like and outcast and becoming more depressed than they may already be. I think they are more comfortable when they reconcile with who they really are, and in the case of transgender they can't do that unless they are physically changed. But I'm sure there are cases where people do improve their feeling of well being form just therapy.

 

I do know that if a normal (not imprisoned) person wants to get a sex change most doctors (maybe it's states too, not sure) require that you do go through therapy and live out a certain amount of time as the sex you wish to become before they will consider undertaking the procedure or any hormone therapy.

[sd'sker]

what a world we live in. here we have a guy fighting to get his dong cut off; and here we have a guy fighting because his dong was cut off:

 

Phillip Seaton's Penis Amputation Appeal: Dr. John Patterson Had Options

 

we have a long ways to go before we live in a world were the proper dongs are and are not getting cut off.

[ZRod]

what a world we live in. here we have a guy fighting to get his dong cut off; and here we have a guy fighting because his dong was cut off:

 

Phillip Seaton's Penis Amputation Appeal: Dr. John Patterson Had Options

 

we have a long ways to go before we live in a world were the proper dongs are and are not getting cut off.

You really got a thing for dongs don't you?

[sd'sker]

what a world we live in. here we have a guy fighting to get his dong cut off; and here we have a guy fighting because his dong was cut off:

 

Phillip Seaton's Penis Amputation Appeal: Dr. John Patterson Had Options

 

we have a long ways to go before we live in a world were the proper dongs are and are not getting cut off.

You really got a thing for dongs don't you?

the word, more so.

[VA Husker Fan]

I've been reluctant to get involved with this, since I have a member of my family who is transgendered, but it seems like most people here are trying to understand and acknowledging what they don't understand. I don't think I'm going to get into any specifics with my family member.

 

It's real. Some people just really feel like they were given the wrong type of body. The best guess is that usually the physical and mental sides are given the gender at the same time. For some reason, every once in awhile, perhaps due to some trauma or event with the mother or fetus at the time this happens, it is thrown off, and it becomes a 50/50 shot that the mental will match the physical. This could very well be wrong but it's the explanation we were given. Knapp's suggestion of "fix the brain" doesn't seem to be an option now because they don't know how. Plus, it seems to be somewhat like giving someone a lobotomy for the wrong reasons.

 

Nobody chooses to go through this. It's a rough life. It's hard to come to the realization that you have a gender identity disorder, and it's hard to decide to go through with changing your gender. You will often lose friends and family members and can legally be discriminated against. It's just not something anyone does on a lark, or to be different. However, if there's someone who might, I wouldn't totally rule out someone in long term incarceration looking to get special treatment.

 

zrod is right that in most cases you have to live as the opposite sex for a year before having surgery. I can't recall either if this is a state or doctor mandated thing. In our state you also need 10 counseling sessions before even starting hormone therapy.

 

Not everyone does the full surgery. M2F surgery generally has a better end result than F2M. Most private insurance policies don't pay for this, as far as I know, or maybe we were unlucky in our case. And some people just choose not to go through the surgery, and instead just dress and live as the opposite sex. With all that in mind, and as supportive as I am to my family member and others going through this, I'm not too sure that the state ought to be paying for this.

[knapplc]

Thanks for sharing, VA. It's tough to talk about things when they're deeply personal like that. You bring some good perspective to the conversation.