Trump's America

[Moiraine]

What I am asking for is an acknowledgement that not everyone who voted for Trump did so because they are racists or that they approve of racist behavior. I know that to be a fact but it seems many hereabouts are struggling with the concept.

 

Here's the problem. Maybe they don't necessarily approve of it, but they think it's not an important issue. Which is pretty awful and does make one question whether they're racist. It's a pretty normal place to go.

 

Also, how likely are people who are racist, sexist, bigoted (Trump and many in his cabinet) to be a good representative for people of a different race, people of a different gender, or people who are gay? How likely are they to care if those people are being marginalized and hurt?

[Landlord]

What I am asking for is an acknowledgement that not everyone who voted for Trump did so because they are racists or that they approve of racist behavior.

 

 

I don't say this in a demonizing way, but imo, they do, or did, approve of racist behavior through the action of their vote.

[GM_Tood]

 

 

Let's talk about that wall. In Trump's official plan he sticks to having Mexico pay for it. Let's say Mexico refuses. What are Trump's options? Do we cut off trade with them? Impose huge tariffs? If so, can our economy handle that?

He would also "change a rule under the USA Patriot Act anti-terrorism law to cut off a portion of the funds sent to Mexico through money transfers".

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/page/politics/memo-explains-how-donald-trump-plans-to-pay-for-border-wall/2007/?tid=a_inl

 

There's a difference between Mexico (as in the government) paying for the wall, and individual Mexicans paying for the wall. I think most people always took it to mean the former. Adding/increasing a fee to visas is the latter. With the day 1 thing, it might be that Mexico decides that will hurt the economy enough that they should pay for the wall instead. We'll have to see how proud they are. If they're proud enough it will hurt our economy. Trump's talk of China is much more concerning. We can't have every country pissed off at us at the same time.

 

Also, something written in the cancelling visas section is a huge assumption which I doubt is correct; which is that accepting a large number of immigrants has decreased Americans' wages and raised unemployment.

 

As I understand it, any policy put in place to "punish Mexico" will be removed if they cut a check for ~$10B.

[JJ Husker]

"Is it just because he's racist."

 

I mean... if that were the only reason, wouldn't that alone be enough? Do we really need a racist in the White House? That line of thinking makes no sense.

 

You're missing the point of the questions I said you should ask yourself.

I realize it is hard to contemplate on this issue once your mind is already made up. Really, I do get that.

I myself wonder why I am even attempting to explain this thought process when I could just be letting him have it with both barrels. I guess I like arguing but I also really dislike when people erroneously classify others as something they are not. Strikes me as a bit the same as being racist.

 

The point was, if he were better in any of his flawed areas, there is a point on that sliding scale where you may have deemed him better than Hillary. All I'm saying is many people likely found themselves on the other side of that line from you and me. I don't think it necessarily makes them all bad people or racists or whatever. And the key word there is "all". Some are and these are the people I say voted for him for the wrong reasons. I just hope we all realize that was not the motivation or consideration for many of the votes that were cast.

[knapplc]

 

 

 

So does that mean everyone that voted for Hillary should be known as a truth bender that will publicly shame someone that accuses their spouse of extra marital affairs?

I just want to make sure because I think you covered the Trump supporters, so I just want to know where the Hillary supporters are coming from.

 

Don’t get me started on those poop slinging Harambe people.

I own my Hillary vote, lock, stock & barrel.

 

That's good, I'm glad you were proud to vote for Hillary.

 

And you now get the added benefit of not having to explain why you helped elect a [insert one or more of her many serious character flaws here].

 

You should maybe ask yourself, what or how many less of Trump's faults or policy positions would have changed your vote. Is it just because he's racist? Because of the womanizing and sexist problems? His legal issues? Stiffing contractors? The wall? Can you acknowledge that there are some specific issues, the scope and breadth of which, had you deemed them a little less concerning, that may have caused you to change your vote. If you can, then you may begin to see that not everyone sees the world through your eyes and experiences.

 

I'm not proud to have voted for Hillary, as I've made clear over and over.

 

I could easily have explained that vote, and would to this day, by saying that as flawed as she is, much as I dislike her, she's better than Trump. And she is, and would be for America.

 

It isn't a matter of seeing the world through different eyes. It's a matter of right and wrong.

 

PS - you'd hear me bitching about four years of Clinton right now if she won the Electoral College. I'd be bitching about different things, but I would be opposed to her and her problems as well. I would be less horrified, but I'd be doing the same thing.

 

So don't think you're getting some special Trump-only bitching from me. You'd be blessed with this regardless of who won.

[knapplc]

 

"Is it just because he's racist."

 

I mean... if that were the only reason, wouldn't that alone be enough? Do we really need a racist in the White House? That line of thinking makes no sense.

You're missing the point of the questions I said you should ask yourself.

I realize it is hard to contemplate on this issue once your mind is already made up. Really, I do get that.

I myself wonder why I am even attempting to explain this thought process when I could just be letting him have it with both barrels. I guess I like arguing but I also really dislike when people erroneously classify others as something they are not. Strikes me as a bit the same as being racist.

 

The point was, if he were better in any of his flawed areas, there is a point on that sliding scale where you may have deemed him better than Hillary. All I'm saying is many people likely found themselves on the other side of that line from you and me. I don't think it necessarily makes them all bad people or racists or whatever. And the key word there is "all". Some are and these are the people I say voted for him for the wrong reasons. I just hope we all realize that was not the motivation or consideration for many of the votes that were cast.

 

Now I know you're pulling my leg. OK. Good joke, JJ.

[zoogs]

Look, I feel a bit strange arguing these points as I am no Trump supporter and I run the risk of people misunderstanding my intentions. But I do know there are many good people who voted for Trump for their various reasons. The fact he crossed that line with you, me and so many others does not make the people who voted for him de facto supporters of all that is Trump. This is why the false equivalency argument has somewhat annoyed me. The point of demarcation is not the same for everyone.

This is very true. And to be clear, this isn't about condemning Trump supporters at all. There's been a pretty concerted effort to understand who they are, what their concerns are, and why they voted for him. Trump voters, Clinton voters, anybody voters -- we're all American and need to connect with one another.

 

The false equivalency argument is about how Trump and other politicians are not the same. That is, he should not be treated merely as a politician you disagree with winning an election -- that's a normal thing that happens.

 

That's not the argument here. I think here we're just pointing at things Trump is doing and asking people to own their positions on that. If there were as many people who stood against these things as there seemed to be during the campaign, then correspondingly there won't be too many who own the things Trump the elected official is now doing.

[JJ Husker]

 

 

 

Again....I didn't vote for him. But I do understand that some people did vote for him for good reasons. You seem incapable of that same level of understanding. People have varying motivation when they enter that voting booth. They may choose to overlook some faults of the candidates based on their specific concerns. Some people voted for Trump maybe because they felt strongly about abortion. I think quite a few voted for him due to their specific economic situation. Some voted based on jobs, inequitable trade conditions, healthcare, offshoring of jobs, taxes, the list could go on. And yes, I'm sure some asshats voted for him to get those [insert racial slur here] out of "their" country because that is the part of the Trump message that resonated with them.

 

I understand the thought that everyone knew before so therefore.....but those things did not dictate every persons vote. Just because it influenced yours, mine and many others, don't jump to the knee jerk conclusion that everyone used the same reasoning. What you just typed is your opinion and your rationale, don't assign more to it than that. Hillary voters had to overlook and ignore some pretty serious character flaws as well. And please don't retread the false equivalency BS again. I think I've sufficiently explained that people use differing criteria. Not everyone who voted for Trump approves of his words, actions or behavior in all areas. The ludicrous claims to the contrary really need to stop.

I completely don't misunderstand the situation, nor am I incapable of whatever understanding you're talking about. I understand why they voted for him. I understand why people commit crimes, too - that doesn't mean I agree with those crimes. In fact, I vehemently oppose them.

 

What you're basically saying is, there is no unelectable candidate. Everyone who votes for every candidate has a reason. Because of those reasons, every candidate from Pol Pot to Ghandi is OK. That's a fallacious statement and I'll oppose that line of reasoning every single time you bring it up. There are unelectable candidates. Trump is one.

 

Who said he is ok? I didn't say he was ok.

 

I have not asked you to not vehemently oppose Trump. I completely understand the desire and motivation to do so. What I am asking for is an acknowledgement that not everyone who voted for Trump did so because they are racists or that they approve of racist behavior. I know that to be a fact but it seems many hereabouts are struggling with the concept.

 

Also, I did not say, basically or otherwise, that there are no unelectable candidates. I happen to feel there were more than one unelectable candidates in this election cycle. The fact one may be deemed worse than the other does absolutely nothing to reasonably justify that the other one is somehow electable. Additionally, a vote for a candidate does not mean that candidate is ok.

 

Look, I feel a bit strange arguing these points as I am no Trump supporter and I run the risk of people misunderstanding my intentions. But I do know there are many good people who voted for Trump for their various reasons. The fact he crossed that line with you, me and so many others does not make the people who voted for him de facto supporters of all that is Trump. This is why the false equivalency argument has somewhat annoyed me. The point of demarcation is not the same for everyone.

 

So no candidate is unelectable. People have reasons - which they always, always will - and because of those reasons we need to accept their votes as OK no matter how damaging the candidate they elect is to this country.

 

That makes zero sense. Read that back again and think about what you're saying.

 

This will be my last attempt...for the short term anyway.

 

I did not say no candidate is unelectable. I deemed Trump and Hillary (and all others that I knew anything about on my ballot) unelectable. Were some worse than others? Absolutely... yes. But unelectable? That covered them all for me. Johnson > Hillary > Trump.... but still all unelectable.

 

This whole discussion has not been about attempting to say a vote for Trump is ok or that he may not end up damaging this country. I am merely trying to get some acknowledgement that not everyone necessarily fully weighed or considered what their vote meant in all areas. And possibly many were not as aware of how despicable some of the candidates were in certain areas. Yes, maybe they should've been but we here in the political forum on HB are likely more aware of the issues than some others who also voted. If I was one of the people who were completely disillusioned with the past 4 or 8 years for whatever personal reasons and I had only been exposed to a few stories of how Trump was a so and so, I could've cast a vote that did not in any way mean I approved of the worst of Trump. Doesn't make it right, wrong or ok, it's just the way it is.

[JJ Husker]

 

 

"Is it just because he's racist."

 

I mean... if that were the only reason, wouldn't that alone be enough? Do we really need a racist in the White House? That line of thinking makes no sense.

You're missing the point of the questions I said you should ask yourself.

I realize it is hard to contemplate on this issue once your mind is already made up. Really, I do get that.

I myself wonder why I am even attempting to explain this thought process when I could just be letting him have it with both barrels. I guess I like arguing but I also really dislike when people erroneously classify others as something they are not. Strikes me as a bit the same as being racist.

 

The point was, if he were better in any of his flawed areas, there is a point on that sliding scale where you may have deemed him better than Hillary. All I'm saying is many people likely found themselves on the other side of that line from you and me. I don't think it necessarily makes them all bad people or racists or whatever. And the key word there is "all". Some are and these are the people I say voted for him for the wrong reasons. I just hope we all realize that was not the motivation or consideration for many of the votes that were cast.

 

Now I know you're pulling my leg. OK. Good joke, JJ.

 

Now your lack of understanding (or willful avoidance of understanding) is starting to kind of annoy me. It wasn't a joke.

 

Racist- Judges people based on the color of their skin, not by really knowing anything about that person.

 

What you and some people seem to have been doing for the last week or more- Judges people based on their vote, not by really knowing anything about that person.

 

This in no way says it is exactly the same as racism or that one is not way worse than the other. But the action of judging other people based only on certain criteria....yeah, it's sort of the same thing.

[JJ Husker]

 

Look, I feel a bit strange arguing these points as I am no Trump supporter and I run the risk of people misunderstanding my intentions. But I do know there are many good people who voted for Trump for their various reasons. The fact he crossed that line with you, me and so many others does not make the people who voted for him de facto supporters of all that is Trump. This is why the false equivalency argument has somewhat annoyed me. The point of demarcation is not the same for everyone.

This is very true. And to be clear, this isn't about condemning Trump supporters at all. There's been a pretty concerted effort to understand who they are, what their concerns are, and why they voted for him. Trump voters, Clinton voters, anybody voters -- we're all American and need to connect with one another.

 

The false equivalency argument is about how Trump and other politicians are not the same. That is, he should not be treated merely as a politician you disagree with winning an election -- that's a normal thing that happens.

 

That's not the argument here. I think here we're just pointing at things Trump is doing and asking people to own their positions on that. If there were as many people who stood against these things as there seemed to be during the campaign, then correspondingly there won't be too many who own the things Trump the elected official is now doing.

 

Thank you zoogs. This little bit of acknowledgement has been my only purpose here.

[teachercd]

"Is it just because he's racist."

 

I mean... if that were the only reason, wouldn't that alone be enough? Do we really need a racist in the White House? That line of thinking makes no sense.

You are not naive enough to think that there has never been a racist in the White House...are you?

[JJ Husker]

 

What I am asking for is an acknowledgement that not everyone who voted for Trump did so because they are racists or that they approve of racist behavior.

 

 

I don't say this in a demonizing way, but imo, they do, or did, approve of racist behavior through the action of their vote.

 

Hey, if they really do approve of racist behavior, go ahead and demonize them. It would be warranted in that situation.

 

But please realize there are people who voted for him that were not exposed to the list of his prior actions that maybe we here were. Maybe some people heard just a few of the stories or tuned them out because they liked some aspect of Trump. Hell, maybe they strictly watch Fox News and heard none of it. I am not claiming everyone is super informed or smart or whatnot. Simply stating that a vote for Trump does not have to mean a person is or approves of racist behavior. I would like to think and hope that many people fall into this category because the world in which that is not true is a much scarier place than the world where a vote for Trump = Racism.

[Bigred_inSD]

 

 

"Is it just because he's racist."

 

I mean... if that were the only reason, wouldn't that alone be enough? Do we really need a racist in the White House? That line of thinking makes no sense.

You are not naive enough to think that there has never been a racist in the White House...are you?

Andrew Jackson, which is exactly why he shouldn't be on the $20 and why Trump shouldn't be in the White House

[JJ Husker]

 

 

 

 

So does that mean everyone that voted for Hillary should be known as a truth bender that will publicly shame someone that accuses their spouse of extra marital affairs?

I just want to make sure because I think you covered the Trump supporters, so I just want to know where the Hillary supporters are coming from.

 

Don’t get me started on those poop slinging Harambe people.

I own my Hillary vote, lock, stock & barrel.

 

That's good, I'm glad you were proud to vote for Hillary.

 

And you now get the added benefit of not having to explain why you helped elect a [insert one or more of her many serious character flaws here].

 

You should maybe ask yourself, what or how many less of Trump's faults or policy positions would have changed your vote. Is it just because he's racist? Because of the womanizing and sexist problems? His legal issues? Stiffing contractors? The wall? Can you acknowledge that there are some specific issues, the scope and breadth of which, had you deemed them a little less concerning, that may have caused you to change your vote. If you can, then you may begin to see that not everyone sees the world through your eyes and experiences.

 

I'm not proud to have voted for Hillary, as I've made clear over and over.

 

I could easily have explained that vote, and would to this day, by saying that as flawed as she is, much as I dislike her, she's better than Trump. And she is, and would be for America.

 

It isn't a matter of seeing the world through different eyes. It's a matter of right and wrong.

 

PS - you'd hear me bitching about four years of Clinton right now if she won the Electoral College. I'd be bitching about different things, but I would be opposed to her and her problems as well. I would be less horrified, but I'd be doing the same thing.

 

So don't think you're getting some special Trump-only bitching from me. You'd be blessed with this regardless of who won.

 

 

And sorry about the "proud to vote for Hillary" jab. That was an uncalled for tit-for-tat shot meant to elicit a reaction. I know you would've rather had some other viable options, as most all of us would've. I understand why some people voted for Hillary even though she too was unelectable.

[Landlord]

Regardless, there is ignorance at play (racism is largely rooted in ignorance due to lack of exposure/education of different cultures, and being uneducated about who Donald Trump is is also ignorance), and people have to own that ignorance. It's not evil, but it is their responsibility.

 

Someone who didn't know how bad Trump is because all they do is watch Fox News is just as culpable and responsible as someone who consciously approves of his racist behavior. Even then, though, all I'm saying is that while people might not have cognizant approval of Trump's racist actions/behavior (who in the world admits freely, "Yeah, I'm kind of a racist a-hole", their actions approve. Same way that I can say I don't support slave labor, and then buy Apple/Nike/whatever products, or that someone can claim they hate drama, but always seems to find themselves in the most over-exaggerated situations. What someone says they believe or approve of isn't really all that commonly the same as what the way they are living their lives speaks to.