Trump Foreign Policy

[Landlord]

but if you're trying to show that he's bad for this country stick to hard facts and number not subjective material. If you're trying to change a staunch Republicans mind all you'll get is a "Yeah, but..."

 

 

Studies have shown that storytelling is much more effective at changing minds than facts are.

[ZRod]

 

but if you're trying to show that he's bad for this country stick to hard facts and number not subjective material. If you're trying to change a staunch Republicans mind all you'll get is a "Yeah, but..."

 

 

Studies have shown that storytelling is much more effective at changing minds than facts are.

80% of statistics are made up...

[Moiraine]

 

 

 

 

We can rope a dope with comparisons all day long. But at the end of the day, what we have in the White House is a guy who takes credit for anything remotely positive (including a whole lot of stuff he had no part in) and foists anything that goes wrong into someone else's purview...

 

And that is... SAD!

Again, all things said about the previous resident of the White House.

 

So, let's stop acting like it's the frist time we've seen it. Let's simply demand better from all parties. We're one nation, we all take the blame for our leaders transgressions. Why can't we put this partisan crap aside and work as a team for once? One side, or both need to stand up and be the bigger people. Stop crying and work together to fix things.

I'm talking in general here, not the comment Trump made today that annoyed me.

 

This isn't normal president speak. Obama didn't take credit for job creation that was set into motion by Bush (or he wouldn't have if it had happened), but Trump has multiple times. Obama didn't take sole credit for stock market increases or gas price decreases. He said he was happy gas prices were low. Obama wasn't one to boast or take sole credit for things even when he was highly involved.

 

Bush wasn't even borderline similar to Trump in this regard either. Trump has literally said if there is a negative poll about him it's a fake poll.

 

I'm tired of people saying and thinking this is just the same old stuff. It's not. It's hard for me to imagine that people saying these things were adults when Obama/Bush became president or if they were, paid attention to politics.

It's not the same old stuff and Trump has taken this to another level never seen before.

 

However, to deny that Obama didn't blame Bush constantly throughout the first half of his first term...well....that's revisionist history.

 

That said, I would prefer to concentrate on the pathetic actions and words of the child like mental midget in the White House right now.

 

But who has denied Obama did it? I already said Obama did it over the economy. I said he specifically didn't do what Trump just did.

[ZRod]

 

 

 

 

We can rope a dope with comparisons all day long. But at the end of the day, what we have in the White House is a guy who takes credit for anything remotely positive (including a whole lot of stuff he had no part in) and foists anything that goes wrong into someone else's purview...

 

And that is... SAD!

Again, all things said about the previous resident of the White House.

So, let's stop acting like it's the frist time we've seen it. Let's simply demand better from all parties. We're one nation, we all take the blame for our leaders transgressions. Why can't we put this partisan crap aside and work as a team for once? One side, or both need to stand up and be the bigger people. Stop crying and work together to fix things.

I'm talking in general here, not the comment Trump made today that annoyed me.

This isn't normal president speak. Obama didn't take credit for job creation that was set into motion by Bush (or he wouldn't have if it had happened), but Trump has multiple times. Obama didn't take sole credit for stock market increases or gas price decreases. He said he was happy gas prices were low. Obama wasn't one to boast or take sole credit for things even when he was highly involved.

Bush wasn't even borderline similar to Trump in this regard either. Trump has literally said if there is a negative poll about him it's a fake poll.

I'm tired of people saying and thinking this is just the same old stuff. It's not. It's hard for me to imagine that people saying these things were adults when Obama/Bush became president or if they were, paid attention to politics.

It's not the same old stuff and Trump has taken this to another level never seen before.

 

However, to deny that Obama didn't blame Bush constantly throughout the first half of his first term...well....that's revisionist history.

 

That said, I would prefer to concentrate on the pathetic actions and words of the child like mental midget in the White House right now.

But who has denied Obama did it? I already said Obama did it over the economy. I said he specifically didn't do what Trump just did.

But he did... I gave you a quote of him doing it very nicely about Iraq and ISIS, not even his press secretary saying it.

[zoogs]

It's the same. It's just not polished up. Obama took credit for almost all those things, he's just savy enough to say "we" and include others who worked hard in his acknowledgments. All good leaders know to do this, even if they don't really feel it deep down.

 

This blame game really is not something new, no matter what you guys want to think. You're just watching an unpolished turd go through the motions rather than a smooth speaker like Barack. The stench is more noticeable without the sugar coating.

 

I like Barack, but we're all going to take credit for the good things and distance ourselves from the bad. It just looks worse when you're incompetent to start with.

It doesn't just look worse. It actually is worse. What I'm concerned about is that in making this argument we're refusing to evaluate the credibility of their respective arguments.

 

Bush, for example, literally chose to create the Iraq mess through his intervention. Obama campaigned explicitly on a reversal of interventionist foreign policy and regularly cites the unpredictable aftermath as to why. Trump's message is completely incoherent, especially given his administration's support for the Assad regime that perpetrated this attack. This is the opposite stance of the Obama administration and in complete alignment with Russia. It's an embarrassment for Trump and he's blindly deflecting because his pattern of asking people to blame his political opponents or desired victims is in no way similar or comparable in degree or fairness to his predecessor.

 

Is blaming Hillary for Benghazi similar, too? That's also blaming a person for a thing. Hillary has blamed people for things, too.

 

Content matters. We should have a pretty high standard for allowing ourselves to brush things aside with "it's the same".

[Moiraine]

 

 

 

 

 

We can rope a dope with comparisons all day long. But at the end of the day, what we have in the White House is a guy who takes credit for anything remotely positive (including a whole lot of stuff he had no part in) and foists anything that goes wrong into someone else's purview...

 

And that is... SAD!

Again, all things said about the previous resident of the White House.

So, let's stop acting like it's the frist time we've seen it. Let's simply demand better from all parties. We're one nation, we all take the blame for our leaders transgressions. Why can't we put this partisan crap aside and work as a team for once? One side, or both need to stand up and be the bigger people. Stop crying and work together to fix things.

I'm talking in general here, not the comment Trump made today that annoyed me.

This isn't normal president speak. Obama didn't take credit for job creation that was set into motion by Bush (or he wouldn't have if it had happened), but Trump has multiple times. Obama didn't take sole credit for stock market increases or gas price decreases. He said he was happy gas prices were low. Obama wasn't one to boast or take sole credit for things even when he was highly involved.

Bush wasn't even borderline similar to Trump in this regard either. Trump has literally said if there is a negative poll about him it's a fake poll.

I'm tired of people saying and thinking this is just the same old stuff. It's not. It's hard for me to imagine that people saying these things were adults when Obama/Bush became president or if they were, paid attention to politics.

It's not the same old stuff and Trump has taken this to another level never seen before.

 

However, to deny that Obama didn't blame Bush constantly throughout the first half of his first term...well....that's revisionist history.

 

That said, I would prefer to concentrate on the pathetic actions and words of the child like mental midget in the White House right now.

But who has denied Obama did it? I already said Obama did it over the economy. I said he specifically didn't do what Trump just did.

But he did... I gave you a quote of him doing it very nicely about Iraq and ISIS, not even his press secretary saying it.

No. It's not. The quote wasn't close to being the same thing.

 

Saying Syria using chemical warfare and killing civilians with it is Obama's fault is not at all the same as saying ISIS came from Al Qaeda's increase due to the Iraq War. They aren't in the same ballpark.

 

Here's an example of an equivalent "quote":

 

Obama: Those men were beheaded and women were raped because of Bush

 

 

One kind of quote puts some the blame on a group becoming more powerful on a former president. The other kind says the evil acts committed by the group are solely a former president's fault.

 

There will always be evil people. Saying a person caused their evil is much different than saying they didn't do a good enough job to stop them from being able to do it. What's even worse about Trump's is he's talking about a country. Not a terrorist group.

 

Spicer is saying it's Obama's fault Syria attacked civilians with chemical weapons. This is unprecedented.

[zoogs]

Another big difference here is the priorities of the two administrations. Obama had a policy agenda he was always trying to promote and defend. This is where his administration, right or wrong, spent their effort.

 

Trump is not interested in policy. Instead, it's as many feared: he's interested in going after his opponents, and won't hesitate to bring the apparatus of the executive branch to bear to that end.

 

This is not remotely a similar approach to running the office of the presidency of the United States. We cannot afford to be blind to this. If these approaches are indistinguishable, then it will not matter to the people which kind of president we elect. Perhaps it already doesn't, and that's how we've come to this point.

[ZRod]

 

 

 

 

 

 

We can rope a dope with comparisons all day long. But at the end of the day, what we have in the White House is a guy who takes credit for anything remotely positive (including a whole lot of stuff he had no part in) and foists anything that goes wrong into someone else's purview...

 

And that is... SAD!

Again, all things said about the previous resident of the White House.

So, let's stop acting like it's the frist time we've seen it. Let's simply demand better from all parties. We're one nation, we all take the blame for our leaders transgressions. Why can't we put this partisan crap aside and work as a team for once? One side, or both need to stand up and be the bigger people. Stop crying and work together to fix things.

I'm talking in general here, not the comment Trump made today that annoyed me.

This isn't normal president speak. Obama didn't take credit for job creation that was set into motion by Bush (or he wouldn't have if it had happened), but Trump has multiple times. Obama didn't take sole credit for stock market increases or gas price decreases. He said he was happy gas prices were low. Obama wasn't one to boast or take sole credit for things even when he was highly involved.

Bush wasn't even borderline similar to Trump in this regard either. Trump has literally said if there is a negative poll about him it's a fake poll.

I'm tired of people saying and thinking this is just the same old stuff. It's not. It's hard for me to imagine that people saying these things were adults when Obama/Bush became president or if they were, paid attention to politics.

It's not the same old stuff and Trump has taken this to another level never seen before.

 

However, to deny that Obama didn't blame Bush constantly throughout the first half of his first term...well....that's revisionist history.

 

That said, I would prefer to concentrate on the pathetic actions and words of the child like mental midget in the White House right now.

But who has denied Obama did it? I already said Obama did it over the economy. I said he specifically didn't do what Trump just did.

But he did... I gave you a quote of him doing it very nicely about Iraq and ISIS, not even his press secretary saying it.

No. It's not. The quote wasn't close to being the same thing.

Saying Syria using chemical warfare and killing civilians with it is Obama's fault is not at all the same as saying ISIS came from Al Qaeda's increase due to the Iraq War. They aren't in the same ballpark.

Here's an example of an equivalent "quote":

Obama: Those men were beheaded and women were raped because of Bush

One kind of quote puts some the blame on a group becoming more powerful on a former president. The other kind says the evil acts committed by the group are solely a former president's fault.

There will always be evil people. Saying a person caused their evil is much different than saying they didn't do a good enough job to stop them from being able to do it. What's even worse about Trump's is he's talking about a country. Not a terrorist group.

Spicer is saying it's Obama's fault Syria attacked civilians with chemical weapons. This is unprecedented.

He's said its a consequence of inaction, just like Obama said it's a consequence of action.

 

Is ISIS bad beacuse they gained power? No, they're bad because they torture, rape, and murder innocent civilians (pretty similar). Obama didn't have to directly say those things for you to know that's what he meant. Just like he didn't have to say "the previous administration" for you to know that "we" meant Bush's team. He's a polished and smooth talker, something no one in this administration is.

 

Obama was damned if he did and damned if he didn't in Syria, beacuse Russia is screwing with the UN. I don't like the blame game, but yes the fact that we barely did anything led to this. We shouldn't have to be the world police though... and there isn't a good reason for Russia to be proping up Asad after repeated use of chemical weapons.

[Landlord]

He's a polished and smooth talkern something no one in this administration is.

 

 

Hence, they're not the same.

[ZRod]

 

He's a polished and smooth talkern something no one in this administration is.

 

 

Hence, they're not the same.

Not really. The message is the same. "It's not our fault."

[zoogs]

The content is *not* the same. It's galling that you are insisting on this equivalence.

[knapplc]

What, specifically, did Obama himself blame on Bush? I think once people start actually looking into this they'll see these aren't the same things.

 

 

This has become such a joke that Obama himself used it in his routine at the Correspondent's Dinner (the one Trump refused to attend).

 

[Danny Bateman]

ZRod, here is a reply I started working on yesterday when you initially compared Trump to Obama (and any other president) but never finished...

 

I'm not here to put past Presidents on a pedestal. We all know they have shortcomings. That includes Obama.

But I draw the line at normalizing Trump. Because he's not normal. This Donald Trump-Mitch McConnell-Paul Ryan iteration of the GOP can go pound sand. I'm not going to bend over backwards to create an equivalency. The Democratic Party has it's flaws, some of them rather troublesome. But they pale in comparison to the utterly toxic dysfunction of Trump's GOP. What we're seeing now play out is the results of putting a very disordered, addled mind in charge of running the country.

I'd also urge against creating an equivalency between the two parties. I can grin and bear the Democrats flaws. I at least believe they're well-intentioned, for the most part. The GOP, on the other hand, seems to me to be a craven, power-crazed bunch of mostly old white guys who seem to think you can fix all problems by bending over for big business, destroying the planet to please Big Energy, sticking it to the poor and pushing a religious agenda.

If that makes me a bleeding heart libtard, so be it.

If they want people like me to stop feeling that they can politely go f$#% themselves, perhaps they ought to rethink their priorities. Their only notable bill so far got 17% approval. They need to formulate some new policy prescriptions if they want to appeal to someone like me or my peers.

[Danny Bateman]

[knapplc]

Getting heavily involved in Syria would be a huge mistake. Odds are, this is just more of Trump campaigning to the base.