The 2020 Presidential Election - Convention & General Election

[Guy Chamberlin]

27 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

 

For all W's flaws and foibles, I think most in retrospect would agree that generally a component of his decision-making was what he thought best for the country and its people out of a sense of patriotism. Trump does what he thinks will please only his voters because his decision-making is guided exclusively by self-interest. He's about his bottom line, his popularity and his re-election. That's it.

 

At the time -- and in retrospect -- George W. Bush decision-making was largely guided by undoing Clinton legislation -- largely regulatory issues designed to protect the American people, -- and by the members of Project for a New American Century, the think tank that dominated his administration and pushed war with Iraq not only as a misplaced vindication for 9/11, but as the next step towards a war with Iran, it's ultimate goal in securing American influence over the Middle East and its oil reserves. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people would die in this ill-conceived vanity project and none of it protected the American people. Also, the brave American soldiers fighting these wars would not come from the wealthy families who sent them into battle. It was then, and always has been, a fake patriotism used to sell political influence and weaponry. Come on, man. 

[Danny Bateman]

10 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

At the time -- and in retrospect -- George W. Bush decision-making was largely guided by undoing Clinton legislation -- largely regulatory issues designed to protect the American people, -- and by the members of Project for a New American Century, the think tank that dominated his administration and pushed war with Iraq not only as a misplaced vindication for 9/11, but as the next step towards a war with Iran, it's ultimate goal in securing American influence over the Middle East and its oil reserves. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people would die in this ill-conceived vanity project and none of it protected the American people. Also, the brave American soldiers fighting these wars would not come from the wealthy families who sent them into battle. It was then, and always has been, a fake patriotism used to sell political influence and weaponry. Come on, man. 

 

You're not going to get an argument from me that Iraq or Afghanistan were somehow good decisions nor were many of his other policy initiatives. It's not like I supported nearly any of them.

 

But it's OK to disagree with people and still think them patriotic. As bad as the effects of the W administration were, are you seriously suggesting he never thought about what was best for the country?

[Guy Chamberlin]

10 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

You're not going to get an argument from me that Iraq or Afghanistan were somehow good decisions nor were many of his other policy initiatives. It's not like I supported nearly any of them.

 

But it's OK to disagree with people and still think them patriotic. As bad as the effects of the W administration were, are you seriously suggesting he never thought about what was best for the country?

 

Yes. 

[Danny Bateman]

6 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Yes. 

 

Fair enough. We disagree. I think he at least processed that bit in a way Trump does not. 

[teachercd]

12 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Yes. 

Ha...That is a badass response!  

[Danny Bateman]

37 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

I agree with this. I think we’re screwed. There has to be a revolution of some kind. We’re an oligarchy now. It’ll either go from that to dictatorship or something in the total opposite direction as progressives age and vote more and become a larger % of the pop. But by the time the latter happens voting might not be legitimate. It’s already being f#&%ed over by GOP governed states increasing wait times/reducing access to polls as much as they can in areas that don’t vote Republican not to mention the gerrymandering. 

 

I think the right answer here is to help get Biden elected and then do whatever we can to hold his feet to the fire and make him respect that our voices and our beliefs should be guiding the party. 

 

Because I guarantee you another four years of the status quo and Republicans getting to draw a bunch of maps that guide the next ten years is not going to reform any of this. It's going to further entrench their disproportionate power.

 

Think of it this way: Biden will help install an environment conducive to achieving the Democratic reforms you want to see. Trump will do everything he can to prevent them.

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, Danny Bateman said:

Think of it this way: Biden will help install an environment conducive to achieving the Democratic reforms you want to see. Trump will do everything he can to prevent them.

 

Or, at the least, Biden will get you less further away from those ideals than Trump will.

[BigRedBuster]

27 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

What I'm super worried about right now are these allegations against Joe Biden haunting him through the election.  If he were to address things now, take questions about it, etc. and somehow put the allegations to rest so to speak, it would do a lot to further him in my mind.  Him NOT addressing the allegations is just kicking the can down the street.

 

The media isn't helping at all..since the allegations have come out, they haven't asked him a single question about them.  It doesn't look like they want the truth and thus Biden will have to get out in front of this.

 

Trump WILL use it against him.

When is the press supposed to ask him about it?  It's not like he's been doing a media tour.

 

Also, how do you think Trump is going to use this against him with his own history?  I agree that he will.  But, I only see that working with his base.  The vast majority of the rest of the population sees him for what he is.

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, BlitzFirst said:

And you know how Trump will use it against him. 

 

One woman whose story has changed three times and who won't even name Biden personally in her allegation vs. 25 women who have made the same and worse allegations against Trump, some of whom have filed lawsuits against him which are currently winding through the courts...

 

I mean, if I'm Joe Biden, I'm OK with those odds.

 

It's really weird to see Bernie supporters constantly talking about Reade and not mentioning Trump's numerous allegations at all. 

[Danny Bateman]

What if... we didn't worry so much about Trump's antics?

 

Silvio Berlusconi is a pretty fair comparison for Trump. He too was a boisterous populist with a penchant for ridiculing his opponents and being generally ridiculous. 

 

Two people ever beat him in Italian elections. Here's how they did so:

 

Quote

The Italian experience provides a blueprint for how to defeat Mr. Trump. Only two men in Italy have won an electoral competition against Mr. Berlusconi: Romano Prodi and the current prime minister, Matteo Renzi (albeit only in a 2014 European election). Both of them treated Mr. Berlusconi as an ordinary opponent. They focused on the issues, not on his character. In different ways, both of them are seen as outsiders, not as members of what in Italy is defined as the political caste.

 

The Democratic Party should learn this lesson. It should not do as the Republicans did after President Obama was elected. Their preconceived opposition to any of his initiatives poisoned the Washington well, fueling the anti-establishment reaction (even if it was a successful electoral strategy for the party). There are plenty of Trump proposals that Democrats can agree with, like new infrastructure investments. Most Democrats, including politicians like Mrs. Clinton and Bernie Sanders and economists like Lawrence Summers and Paul Krugman, have pushed the idea of infrastructure as a way to increase demand and to expand employment among non-college-educated workers. Some details might be different from a Republican plan, but it will add credibility to the Democratic opposition if it tries to find the points in common, not just differences.

 

And an opposition focused on personality would crown Mr. Trump as the people’s leader of the fight against the Washington caste. It would also weaken the opposition voice on the issues, where it is important to conduct a battle of principles.

 

Biden obviously can't credibly make the case of being a political outsider - Bernie would've been much better at that. But he can ignore Trump's histrionics and run his own campaign on government-ing better for people and why Trump's policies hurt them. That's the entire thrust of his campaign.

 

[knapplc]

16 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

Knapp, we're not debating this again.  It's an allegation.  It's not going away.  I don't care if you believe them or not...this is investigating the claim...not whether you or I believe it's true.

 

Me thinking Biden should address the stuff against him doesn't mean I think Trump is in the clear.  I'm not sure how you came up with that logic.

 

The NYT covered it...numerous other publications have covered it.  Bernie Sanders was interviewed today and said if a claim is made it should be investigated.  Most people agree with this and the law agrees with it.

 

How is it that we should just sweep this under the rug?

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

Tell you what, why don't we establish a base here ok Knapp?

 

 

Is the allegation of sexual assault/rape good or bad for Biden?  It has to be one or the other...it cannot be neither.

 

If bad, try to distance self from and/or resolve it.

If good, embrace it.

 

I think it's bad and he should do something about it. 

 

I'm saying try to resolve it before the debates and election comes.  Trump will try to capitalize on it.  These things are both true.

 

So why is it again that me being a Bernie supporter somehow makes the above less true?

 

So... why aren't you talking about Trump's allegations?

[commando]

10 minutes ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

Biden obviously can't credibly make the case of being a political outsider - Bernie would've been much better at that.

 

political outsider?   Bernie Sanders?  the Bernie Sanders who has been in politics his whole life and became a millionaire doing so?   

[knapplc]

3 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

So, why are you trying to derail the conversation?  Start a new thread if you want to discuss them Knapp...don't ask me to do it.

 

Discussion of Trump's two dozen allegations belong in this thread every bit as much as the discussion of Reade's.

 

So, since we're in the right thread, and since you clearly have a concern about sexual assault (as we all should), it is an entirely fair question to ask why you keep bringing this one allegation up but not the others. 

[commando]

Quote

 

2 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

He means outsider as in Political centrist vs. Left Progressive.  Washington isn't very keen on progressives...thus Bernie was seen as a political outsider.

so life long politicians are considered political outsiders.    interesting take.   

[knapplc]

1 minute ago, BlitzFirst said:

 

Construct that straw man to attack Knapp!

 

A straw man is an intentionally misrepresented opinion or statement.

 

I am not representing any opinion or statement you've made, so "straw man" doesn't apply here.

 

Further, I'm not attacking you in any way.  I'm simply stating facts, and asking a relevant question about those facts.

 

Fact:  There is an allegation of sexual assault against Joe Biden, which you have mentioned numerous times in the past few weeks.

Fact:  There are over two dozen allegations of sexual assault against Donald Trump, which you have mentioned zero times in the past few weeks.

 

It is a completely fair and germane question to be asking why you continue to discuss one but not the dozens of others.