Racism - It's a real thing.

[Redux]

12 hours ago, Enhance said:

I'm pretty confused by this quote from Rogan in 2017.

 

 

 

 

To the bolded, I feel like the word has been ridiculously charged my entire life. I'm 32. I've never known a point in time as a white person where it was OK to say that word... or really even for anyone to say that word. It's even a big issue within the black community despite the appearances from pop culture.

 

Those comments just seem wildly ill-informed.

 

Oh it has 100% changed in level of offensiveness, but not to the demographic that should actually be offended by it when someone uses it as a slur.  There was absolutely a time where it was simply frowned upon instead of an instant cancelation and it wasn't that long ago.  Also depends where you come from culturally, different areas changed at different times in terms of how acceptable it was to use in one context or any context.  I've never been a fan of using it at all, but you're disregarding a lot of the way our society has evolved if you honestly think it's never been acceptable (and I use the word acceptable NOT as a way to insinuate that it is or ever was something that should've been acceptable.  Again, it was frowned upon at one time, unlike now where white people don't care about the context if it's someone they want to deplatform)

[Redux]

Context matters.  It should always matter.  Cherry picking quotes to slander someone is the same as nut shotting someone you can't beat in a fight.  And that's what's happening to Rogan.

[RedDenver]

 

[Redux]

Kaepernick wanted notoriety because he was never going to be an NFL superstar, he was serviceable.  So he turned his career into an agenda, and it worked.  I don't like the kneeling thing, but I've also gone on record to say if you want to do it go for it.  Better than rioting.  But let's not pretend Kaepernick was doing anything without his own interests as the top priority.

 

Rogan is doing the same thing he's always done, having honest conversations with people more knowledgeable than he is from both sides of the political spectrum.  And asking honest questions terrifies people.  The guy eat sleeps and breathes health and fitness, he promotes living a healthy lifestyle above all else.  And people are trying to silence him because of it by digging up anything they can from his past.

[RedDenver]

23 minutes ago, Redux said:

Rogan is doing the same thing he's always done, having honest conversations with people more knowledgeable than he is from both sides of the political spectrum.  And asking honest questions terrifies people.

Whole lot of giving Rogan the benefit of the doubt here, which is your perogative but not everyone agrees nor does that make them "terrified" of honest questions. Rogan is also asking ridiculous questions and having less knowledgeable and even charlatans on as well as knowledgeable people.

 

23 minutes ago, Redux said:

The guy eat sleeps and breathes health and fitness, he promotes living a healthy lifestyle above all else.  And people are trying to silence him because of it by digging up anything they can from his past.

You really think people are trying to silence him because of his health and fitness lifestyle? I get that you like Rogan and want to defend him here, but that's a ridiculous claim.

[Lorewarn]

28 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Rogan is also asking ridiculous questions and having less knowledgeable and even charlatans on as well as knowledgeable people.

 

This is all true and honestly who cares? It's entertainment.

[Redux]

32 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Whole lot of giving Rogan the benefit of the doubt here, which is your perogative but not everyone agrees nor does that make them "terrified" of honest questions. Rogan is also asking ridiculous questions and having less knowledgeable and even charlatans on as well as knowledgeable people.

 

It's not benefit of the doubt, it's looking at it without a bunch of preconceived notions.  The appeal of Rogan is he is having the same conversations most people have in private, not the fake conversations people have online.  And he's doing it in front of an audience that eclipses the media.  That's what terrifies people, hence the smear campaign.

 

35 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

You really think people are trying to silence him because of his health and fitness lifestyle? I get that you like Rogan and want to defend him here, but that's a ridiculous claim.

 

I like Rogan, I'm not a die hard.  I listen to some of his podcasts, not all.  It's not a ridiculous thing to say, in fact it's verifiable.  When he got covid, and he promoted the idea of health and fitness and vitamins etc. as a much healthier way (long and short term) to battle not just covid but any ailment, that was taken and spun into him being anti vax.  It's not ridiculous, because it legitimately happened.  You can see for yourself, well you can if you want to.  And once he was labeled andtivax, then he was labeled a right wing nut/conspiracy theorist.  Now he's being labeled a racist.  He's none of those things.

[Redux]

13 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

This is all true and honestly who cares? It's entertainment.

 

It's not just entertainment.  He likes to challenge the guests he has on, which makes sense because he's not just looking for someone to shill themselves.  He's looking to be educated, and you can't be educated by simply listening and nodding.  You have to ask questions if something doesn't sound right or you don't agree fully.

[Enhance]

1 hour ago, Redux said:

Oh it has 100% changed in level of offensiveness, but not to the demographic that should actually be offended by it when someone uses it as a slur.  There was absolutely a time where it was simply frowned upon instead of an instant cancelation and it wasn't that long ago.  Also depends where you come from culturally, different areas changed at different times in terms of how acceptable it was to use in one context or any context.  I've never been a fan of using it at all, but you're disregarding a lot of the way our society has evolved if you honestly think it's never been acceptable (and I use the word acceptable NOT as a way to insinuate that it is or ever was something that should've been acceptable.  Again, it was frowned upon at one time, unlike now where white people don't care about the context if it's someone they want to deplatform)

I guess I have a fundamentally different lived experience than this. I'm not disregarding your perspective Redux, but it is no way relatable to me which is why I'm pretty dumbfounded by Rogan's remarks. And it's not like Omaha has been some cancel culture hot bed for 30 years.

 

For my teenage to now adult life, that word was an absolute no-no. I don't remember anything about it from being a kid. I probably didn't know the word. But, it didn't matter where I was or who I was with. If you said that to a black person, even in the colloquial form, you were getting your a$$ beat. If you said it at work, you were getting fired. If you said it in casual conversation with friends, you were going to get weird looks.

 

My wife's grandpa used to let it fly in conversation, but he was an objective racist. Even my cousin (who for some reason has used that word for a lot of his life) knows to never say it in public and never has.

 

I guess I can see the perspective that some people might use it behind closed doors for some weird reason. But, in my lived experience for 32 years, I've never known a time where it was just "frowned upon" to use that word. Just very, very bizarre to me.

 

[Redux]

1 minute ago, Enhance said:

I guess I have a fundamentally different lived experience than this. I'm not disregarding your perspective Redux, but it is no way relatable to me which is why I'm pretty dumbfounded by Rogan's remarks. And it's not like Omaha has been some cancel culture hot bed for 30 years.

 

For my teenage to now adult life, that word was an absolute no-no. I don't remember anything about it from being a kid. I probably didn't know the word. But, it didn't matter where I was or who I was with. If you said that to a black person, even in the colloquial form, you were getting your a$$ beat. If you said it at work, you were getting fired. If you said it in casual conversation with friends, you were going to get weird looks.

 

My wife's grandpa used to let it slip in conversation, but he was an objective racist. Even my cousin (who for some reason has used that word for a lot of his life) knows to never say it in public and never has.

 

I guess I can see the perspective that some people might use it behind closed doors for some weird reason. But, in my lived experience for 32 years, I've never known a time where it was just "frowned upon" to use that word. Just very, very bizarre to me.

 

 

It goes beyond rural and metro midwest though, look at media over the last several decades.  Hell Vince McMahon dropped it with an "A" at the end during a live broadcast in 2005.  Joe Biden used it in congress quoting others.  Chunk of TYT has a worse compilation video than Rogan floating around now.

[RedDenver]

10 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

It's not benefit of the doubt, it's looking at it without a bunch of preconceived notions.  The appeal of Rogan is he is having the same conversations most people have in private, not the fake conversations people have online.  And he's doing it in front of an audience that eclipses the media.  That's what terrifies people, hence the smear campaign.

You, like everyone else, are looking at this with preconceived notions. The next 3 sentences are all your own preconceived notions of the appeal of Rogan, that his conversations are "real" and not "fake", that his audience "eclipse the media", and that there's a smear campaign because people are terrified. Those are literally all your own preconceived notions about Rogan and his podcast.

 

10 minutes ago, Redux said:

I like Rogan, I'm not a die hard.  I listen to some of his podcasts, not all.  It's not a ridiculous thing to say, in fact it's verifiable.  When he got covid, and he promoted the idea of health and fitness and vitamins etc. as a much healthier way (long and short term) to battle not just covid but any ailment, that was taken and spun into him being anti vax.  It's not ridiculous, because it legitimately happened.  You can see for yourself, well you can if you want to.

I watched the video when he had covid and talked about what he was taking. But it wasn't just healthy living, fitness, or vitamins. You're leaving out where he also promoted ivermectin as part of his recovery and was also taking monoclonal antibody treatments, which are effective against covid but expensive. So saying that the reaction was about health, fitness, and vitamins is completely ignoring the actual reaction, which was about his taking ivermectin despite the scientific evidence showing it didn't work and also that he is rich and could afford expensive treatments like monoclonal antibodies.

 

10 minutes ago, Redux said:

  And once he was labeled andtivax, then he was labeled a right wing nut/conspiracy theorist.  Now he's being labeled a racist.  He's none of those things.

You're ignoring that he's being called a racist because of things he's said in the past, not his anti-vax stance. You can debate whether the things he said were racist or not, but your conclusion that the reason comes from anti-vax is nonsense.

 

It's your ignoring the things that Rogan may have gotten wrong is why I'm saying you're giving him a large benefit of the doubt here.

[Enhance]

21 minutes ago, Redux said:

When he got covid, and he promoted the idea of health and fitness and vitamins etc. as a much healthier way (long and short term) to battle not just covid but any ailment, that was taken and spun into him being anti vax.  It's not ridiculous, because it legitimately happened.  You can see for yourself, well you can if you want to.  And once he was labeled andtivax, then he was labeled a right wing nut/conspiracy theorist.  Now he's being labeled a racist.  He's none of those things.

I think two things can be true here.

 

Yes, Rogan is a health and fitness nut, and he's right that living a healthy lifestyle puts you at much less risk of illness, disease and negative side effects to those diseases in general, whether it's COVID or diabetes.

 

And yes, Rogan has also shared some dumb hot takes that have found a breeding ground within right wing nut job circles.

 

Listen - the guy isn't perfect. I don't necessarily think he's a racist or a nut job. I just think he occasionally says and does dumb things, but their impact and notoriety are exponentially greater than the average persons. His mistakes are amplified ten fold. But, he's also not a victim here. He has said and done these things, things he probably know better than to do and has admitted he knew better than to do.

[RedDenver]

41 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

This is all true and honestly who cares? It's entertainment.

Because it's not just entertainment for some people:

27 minutes ago, Redux said:

It's not just entertainment.  He likes to challenge the guests he has on, which makes sense because he's not just looking for someone to shill themselves.  He's looking to be educated, and you can't be educated by simply listening and nodding.  You have to ask questions if something doesn't sound right or you don't agree fully.

(I'm not criticizing Redux for his opinion that it's not just entertainment, just pointing out that Rogan's podcast is not just entertainment for some.)

[Lorewarn]

7 minutes ago, Enhance said:

I guess I have a fundamentally different lived experience than this. I'm not disregarding your perspective Redux, but it is no way relatable to me which is why I'm pretty dumbfounded by Rogan's remarks. And it's not like Omaha has been some cancel culture hot bed for 30 years.

 

For my teenage to now adult life, that word was an absolute no-no. I don't remember anything about it from being a kid. I probably didn't know the word. But, it didn't matter where I was or who I was with. If you said that to a black person, even in the colloquial form, you were getting your a$$ beat. If you said it at work, you were getting fired. If you said it in casual conversation with friends, you were going to get weird looks.

 

My wife's grandpa used to let it fly in conversation, but he was an objective racist. Even my cousin (who for some reason has used that word for a lot of his life) knows to never say it in public and never has.

 

I guess I can see the perspective that some people might use it behind closed doors for some weird reason. But, in my lived experience for 32 years, I've never known a time where it was just "frowned upon" to use that word. Just very, very bizarre to me.

 

 

 

Growing up in Nebraska outside of Lincoln/Omaha and almost entirely removed from knowing any black people whatsoever my experience is entirely different than this.

 

It's never been exactly "common" in the rural vernacular, but it's definitely something I said and heard said plenty through my first 20 years of life. Almost exclusively in the form of jokes or for a laugh. I think 4th grade was when I remember learning what it was and that "it's a really bad word for black people" and of course we all started calling each other by it because every new bad word we learned we immediately started saying.

[Enhance]

20 minutes ago, Redux said:

It goes beyond rural and metro midwest though, look at media over the last several decades.  Hell Vince McMahon dropped it with an "A" at the end during a live broadcast in 2005.  Joe Biden used it in congress quoting others.  Chunk of TYT has a worse compilation video than Rogan floating around now.

So, is the issue more than the usage of the word but how the consequences have changed?

 

- Madonna used the word in 2014 and immediately said "there's no way to defend the use of the word." That was 8 years ago. Maybe her career didn't get obliterated, but even then, it was a no-no.

- Charlie Sheen said it in a voicemail in 2008 and immediately apologized after facing hefty criticism.

- The Hilton sisters said it in 2007 and profusely apologized then as well, admitting they should never have said it

 

It seems pretty clear to me that going back for at least the last 15 years... people have known they should not say the word at all. So I think it is wildly inaccurate to claim it's level of offensiveness has changed 100%. Seems like it's been incredibly offensive for a long time and that the consequences have changed. Which, I guess someone could have the argument about the pros/cons of the consequences changing... but that doesn't make the usage of the word any worse or better right?