Racism - It's a real thing.

[Redux]

11 minutes ago, Enhance said:

I think two things can be true here.

 

Yes, Rogan is a health and fitness nut, and he's right that living a healthy lifestyle puts you at much less risk of illness, disease and negative side effects to those diseases in general, whether it's COVID or diabetes.

 

And yes, Rogan has also shared some dumb hot takes that have found a breeding ground within right wing nut job circles.

 

Listen - the guy isn't perfect. I don't necessarily think he's a racist or a nut job. I just think he occasionally says and does dumb things, but their impact and notoriety are exponentially greater than the average persons. His mistakes are amplified ten fold. But, he's also not a victim here. He has said and done these things, things he probably know better than to do and has admitted he knew better than to do.

 

Hot takes such as what exactly?  Are we talking about the Ivermectin?  Because if so, it's pretty widely known now that the horse medicine narrative was another smear tactic to paint him as an idiot.  I guess it worked if that's what were talking about.

 

He says dumb things with the precursor he's not an expert.  All the apologies he's put out and his handling of the controversy has been better than most in his situation.  His actually felt genuine and he wants to be better.  People make mistakes, again that's kind of the whole format of the show, growing/learning/seeing other perspectives.

[Redux]

7 minutes ago, Enhance said:

So, is the issue more than the usage of the word but how the consequences have changed?

 

- Madonna used the word in 2014 and immediately said "there's no way to defend the use of the word." That was 8 years ago. Maybe her career didn't get obliterated, but even then, it was a no-no.

- Charlie Sheen said it in a voicemail in 2008 and immediately apologized after facing hefty criticism.

- The Hilton sisters said it in 2007 and profusely apologized then as well, admitting they should never have said it

 

It seems pretty clear to me that going back for at least the last 15 years... people have known they should not say the word at all. So I think it is wildly inaccurate to claim it's level of offensiveness has changed 100%. Seems like it's been incredibly offensive for a long time and that the consequences have changed. Which, I guess someone could have the argument about the pros/cons of the consequences changing... but that doesn't make the usage of the word any worse or better right?

 

I'd argue the public perception of someone who uses the word today is vastly different than it was a decade or two ago.  The usage of the word now is perceived much differently than it used to be.  The implications of using it as a racial slur haven't changed at all.  But using it in quotes or in any non racist descriptive discussion based manner has changed.

[knapplc]

I'm a bit in the middle here. I have the same experience as @Lorewarn, having grown up in rural Nebraska in a community with almost zero Black population. It was a word I heard at school and at home. Friends of my parents would drop it in jokes, and my parents both occasionally used the word. 

 

I knew it was a "naughty" word as a young child. But that was the draw - they said it, often "just jokingly," to be edgy or (in the case of kids) naughty.  My parents very well knew it was a racist word and still said it, although not frequently. I said it in jokes as a young kid to be naughty and fit in. Even as a young kid it didn't feel right.

 

So while the word was much more common in my experience than in @Enhance's, just like he's saying, it was never OK to use. It's never stopped being racist in intent, and it's never been acceptable. People always know they're abusing the word when they use it. 

 

It seems like Rogan is getting blowback for talking about the word, not using it intentionally. There are discussions to be had about the word (as we're doing now) that are perfectly fine. It seems like Rogan's current situation is the result of people being unhappy he's spread Covid misinformation, and we see that happen a lot - dig up dirt on the guy to discredit him. 

[Ulty]

Let's make it simple, guys. Don't say the n-word. Full stop. Just don't. If you feel like you must reference it for some reason, there is no need to say the actual word. Just say "the n-word." 

 

I used to listen to the odd Joe Rogan snippet on Youtube, and one of the most fascinating guests that I ever heard was a black man named Darryl Davis who had infiltrated and befriended a KKK group. I don't really think Joe Rogan is racist, but he has a wide variety of characters on his show and has an amazing tolerance for allowing guests to say ignorant $h!t on his show as well (in addition to very intelligent, progressive, and fascinating guests as well). And he says stupid $h!t himself.

 

I don't know the full context of when and how he used the n-word in the past, but I can guarantee you that it was unnecessary for him to use it, and regardless of his intent, the use of that word is harmful. I'm more interested in what he does moving forward, if this whole thing can be used as an educational launching pad for further understanding the dynamics of the word, language itself, and race relations.

 

But more likely, a lot of @ssholes will probably just complain about cancel culture and not even try to learn anything. 

[Redux]

12 minutes ago, Ulty said:

But more likely, a lot of @ssholes will probably just complain about cancel culture and not even try to learn anything. 

 

I agree with most of the rest of the post, can you expand on this?

[Lorewarn]

19 minutes ago, Ulty said:

But more likely, a lot of @ssholes will probably just complain about cancel culture and not even try to learn anything. 

 

 

The only thing to learn here imo is how easily and successfully people are being manipulated into rage in the exact time/place/subject of outrage that powerful organizations want them to be angry at.

[Ulty]

8 minutes ago, Redux said:

 

I agree with most of the rest of the post, can you expand on this?

Not much to explain...usually when people are complaining about cancel culture, they are often just mad that someone might have to face social consequences for being an a$shole, instead of actually reflecting upon their behavior. 

 

Pleeeeease don't use this to start arguing about cancel culture. The last couple pages of this thread have been a pretty good dialogue about the use of the n-word. 

[Redux]

28 minutes ago, Ulty said:

Not much to explain...usually when people are complaining about cancel culture, they are often just mad that someone might have to face social consequences for being an a$shole, instead of actually reflecting upon their behavior. 

 

Pleeeeease don't use this to start arguing about cancel culture. The last couple pages of this thread have been a pretty good dialogue about the use of the n-word. 

 

I mean, if you don't want someone to slightly disagree with something you say I guess don't post it?  But I'm one of the last people that should say that.

 

I think what you're saying is painting with a pretty broad brush.  In the case of Rogan, he's the type of person we need more of in terms of acceptance and willingness to understand.  Most everything he says and does comes from a place of care.  There are few celebrities you can listen to speak and feel like they are genuine.

 

Sure, there are people who are just mad about cancel culture.  And that's a completely legitimate gripe considering that at it's core, this is a witch hunt with the intent to shut someone up.  But Rogan has owned up to everything he has said in the past and he's going about his business trying to move on from it.  He asked Spotify to take down episodes, not the other way around.  And to their credit, they aren't overreacting to this.  So far, this has been a positive step towards actually dealing with things like this.  Again, sure there are people who just want to defend Rogan and there are people who just want to defend free speech.  But there are also a ton of people who don't care about the context, what was said or the truth about any other controversial thing concerning Rogan who just want him gone and they have no clue who he is or what he does.

[Enhance]

4 hours ago, Redux said:

I'd argue the public perception of someone who uses the word today is vastly different than it was a decade or two ago.  The usage of the word now is perceived much differently than it used to be.

I'll have to agree to disagree with the bolded, but again, this is very much based on lived experience. Saying that word in the places I've lived and grown up... unacceptable, if not downright dangerous. Perhaps the consequences have become more severe overall, but as @knapplc said, it has never been an acceptable term to use in any context for the majority of our lives at least. The perception of anyone who uses that word has been poor in the public eye for decades now. Is there an example of someone saying it publicly in the last 30 years (and by publicly... I mean in a large format of diverse, free thinking people) and NOT being heavily criticized?

 

4 hours ago, Redux said:

Hot takes such as what exactly?  Are we talking about the Ivermectin?  Because if so, it's pretty widely known now that the horse medicine narrative was another smear tactic to paint him as an idiot.  I guess it worked if that's what were talking about.

The list is extensive. Ivermectin, general vaccine propaganda, "mass-formation hypnosis," microchips from the vaccine... or when he said the vaccines were gene therapy, which they are literally not.

So it's not just about Rogan talking about these things. It's the manner in which they're shared and discussed. If somebody says some crazy s#!t on his podcast and his response boils down to "wow that's some crazy s#!t..." without any substantial fact checking or validation... then a lot of people are going to believe it. It's irresponsible.

 

But again, Rogan himself has admitted his n-word commentary was 100% wrong. He has also admitted that he needs to do a better job as far as covid and vaccine conversations go. He has admitted that he's not doing good enough job. He's not a victim of anything other than poor decision making. And this is a problem with "cancel culture" discussions, something I have been guilty of myself. "Cancel culture" sometimes goes too far, but too many people's first reaction is get frustrated with the 'canceling' as opposed to reflecting on why it's happening in the first place. We would all be better served to focus on the 'why,' IMO, even if we disagree with the cancel culturey nature of the public reaction.

[teachercd]

I am starting to think that some of you think Die Hard was a documentary. 

 

 

[Archy1221]

1 hour ago, teachercd said:

I am starting to think that some of you think Die Hard was a documentary. 

 

 

Not just a documentary, but a Christmas documentary 

[JJ Husker]

1 hour ago, teachercd said:

I am starting to think that some of you think Die Hard was a documentary. 

 

 

What, don’t you? It was the real life true story of the occupation and destruction of the Nakatomi building. You can’t make that s#!t up.

[Lorewarn]

7 hours ago, Enhance said:

Is there an example of someone saying it publicly in the last 30 years (and by publicly... I mean in a large format of diverse, free thinking people) and NOT being heavily criticized?

 

 

Not to try and steer the conversation entirely this way (more just trying to keep it light), but I've seen a number of instances that were pretty hilarious, or at least didn't receive any blowback, but only because the joke is very specifically on the ignorance and idiocy of (white) folks who would actually use the word.

 

 

Content warning for the n-word

 

 

 

 

 

[Redux]

12 hours ago, Enhance said:

I'll have to agree to disagree with the bolded, but again, this is very much based on lived experience. Saying that word in the places I've lived and grown up... unacceptable, if not downright dangerous. Perhaps the consequences have become more severe overall, but as @knapplc said, it has never been an acceptable term to use in any context for the majority of our lives at least. The perception of anyone who uses that word has been poor in the public eye for decades now. Is there an example of someone saying it publicly in the last 30 years (and by publicly... I mean in a large format of diverse, free thinking people) and NOT being heavily criticized?

 

The list is extensive. Ivermectin, general vaccine propaganda, "mass-formation hypnosis," microchips from the vaccine... or when he said the vaccines were gene therapy, which they are literally not.

So it's not just about Rogan talking about these things. It's the manner in which they're shared and discussed. If somebody says some crazy s#!t on his podcast and his response boils down to "wow that's some crazy s#!t..." without any substantial fact checking or validation... then a lot of people are going to believe it. It's irresponsible.

 

But again, Rogan himself has admitted his n-word commentary was 100% wrong. He has also admitted that he needs to do a better job as far as covid and vaccine conversations go. He has admitted that he's not doing good enough job. He's not a victim of anything other than poor decision making. And this is a problem with "cancel culture" discussions, something I have been guilty of myself. "Cancel culture" sometimes goes too far, but too many people's first reaction is get frustrated with the 'canceling' as opposed to reflecting on why it's happening in the first place. We would all be better served to focus on the 'why,' IMO, even if we disagree with the cancel culturey nature of the public reaction.

 

I'm not going to get into an argument about possible covid treatments or vaccines.  I'm pretty sure you haven't listened to most of his discussions about these things, and I know I haven't  heard them all, so this would be pointless.  So I'll assume you're assuming and leave it at that.

 

It was wrong, therefore he admitted it was wrong.  It was the right thing to do.  And he probably saw it coming, he's not as dumb as he pretends to be.

 

As to the bolded, it sounds a lot like what Ulty was implying.  Literally everyone makes mistakes, bad decisions, poor judgment etc.  Rogan just has a massive audience, so he can actually be canceled.  And I'm sorry but you seem to be looking at it backwards to how I am.  I am looking at this as WHY is he being canceled and it stems from unpopular opinion sharing, not old insensitive slur usage.  He said things people don't agree with, so people dug up racist looking s#!t.  That's the why.  That doesn't make him innocent, but sharing unpopular opinions and ideas shouldn't turn into racism, as it does too often because it's an easy thing to point to to get someone silenced.

[Enhance]

9 hours ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

Not to try and steer the conversation entirely this way (more just trying to keep it light), but I've seen a number of instances that were pretty hilarious, or at least didn't receive any blowback, but only because the joke is very specifically on the ignorance and idiocy of (white) folks who would actually use the word.

 

 

Content warning for the n-word

 

 

 

 

 

I should've been more specific in that I wasn't really talking about examples of the N word being used in some type of movie or pop culture format. That's not really in the same vein as what we've been talking about IMO. I was talking about someone using the word in a more real life situation.