Income Inequality

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

This just...isn't helpful. It removes all nuance from the complicated reality, and it turns it into a binary situation rather than a spectrum. Income inequality exists to some degree in literally every society and culture. It is actually inevitable (human beings need hierarchies in order to live in society with one another, and hierarchies produce inequality), but it is significantly more unequal in some places compared to others. And when it gets bad enough, throughout history, revolution happens. 

 

Secondly, an individual can let it get them down AND take responsibility for trying to better their situation. Both of those things can happen in the same person, at the same time, and often do. I know so many poor people, and I imagine you do too, who are so frustrated and angry because of their lot, but also work their damn asses off trying to get ahead. Poverty is generally not caused by bad attitudes or faulty lifestyles or lazy work ethic - it's generally caused by things like low wages, lack of jobs, and poor education. 

 

The thing is though...it's too damn expensive to be poor. It's a compounding disadvantage. You make less money which makes it harder to save which makes it more difficult to transition into a better job. It makes things like first and last month's rent way more difficult, which makes people have to rely on overpriced motel rates day to day. It often comes with unpredictable or inconsistent work schedules, which makes planning things like child care or additional jobs harder. If you need a loan you'll get way worse interest rates and have to pay way more. If you don't have something like a kitchen or a fridge (which does happen), then you rely on poor nutritional convenience store or fast food, which is way more expensive and gives you way more of a chance of developing health problems. If you can't afford as reliable of a car you've got way more of a chance of it breaking down which leads to lost wages and sudden expenses, a higher chance of being fined financially with a ticket. So on and so forth. It's a crazy, sad high wire act. 

 

You don't have to subscribe to a victim mentality or world view to still have empathy and outrage for how difficult of a life poor people face, whether they contributed to it or not. 

 

This seems just a little ironic considering the previous post with the essential message of, "This exists everywhere, so obviously we can't do about it"

 

With respect to the bolded, there have been some really well-done analyses of this problem. One solution that has been proposed and tried on a small level woth some success is microloans. Even as small an amount as a thousand or two dollars can help someone put of that cycle. The research is really fascinating.

[Landlord]

1 hour ago, TheSker said:

I would personally agree with the probability of the informed speculation.

 

I don't care how it effects him though.

 

My point about his ranking is there is a lot of wealth and influence in the US that ranks above Trump's.

 

Now if any of those people or families are interested in using it politically, I have no idea......other than the obvious of families like Koch.

 

Sorry if my post wasn't clear, I wasn't talking to you specifically as much as a vague general 'you' towards all people. Sure, there are lazy people. I imagine there are roughly equal amounts of lazy people in all different economic classes. But only some lazy people really suffer for their laziness. Even then, they're not the majority of poor people. 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

 

With respect to the bolded, there have been some really well-done analyses of this problem. One solution that has been proposed and tried on a small level woth some success is microloans. Even as small an amount as a thousand or two dollars can help someone put of that cycle. The research is really fascinating.

 

There's lots of good ideas out there. The problem is that the overwhelming majority of government officials would rather maintain or increase income inequality to leverage for their own gain, so even if we can agree from different perspectives and approaches on some really good ideas, it doesn't really matter because powerful people generally have a vested interest in keeping poor people poor but believing that those people will save them.

[B.B. Hemingway]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread to this point, is just how bad people are at managing/allocating their money. My wife has worked in the the banking/financial world as long as we've been married, and she has always said how staggering it is. And it's not just poor people of course, but they are the one's more immediately impacted by those poor financial decisions. You can be both poor, and personally responsible for your financial situation. Wealth redistribution, and tax reform aren't going to correct those habits.

 

[Ric Flair]

8 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

Sorry if my post wasn't clear, I wasn't talking to you specifically as much as a vague general 'you' towards all people. Sure, there are lazy people. I imagine there are roughly equal amounts of lazy people in all different economic classes. But only some lazy people really suffer for their laziness. Even then, they're not the majority of poor people. 

 

There's lots of good ideas out there. The problem is that the overwhelming majority of government officials would rather maintain or increase income inequality to leverage for their own gain, so even if we can agree from different perspectives and approaches on some really good ideas, it doesn't really matter because powerful people generally have a vested interest in keeping poor people poor but believing that those people will save them.

 

I think the definition of “lazy” also needs a rethink. We tend to treat it as a character flaw. But if you grow up in a home where no one has ever worked, everyone has been invovled in crime, on some form of assistance, etc. how are you supposed to know any better? If no one you interact with has finished school or worked a 9-5 job, those concepts are very foreign. 

[Landlord]

5 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread to this point, is just how bad people are at managing/allocating their money. My wife has worked in the the banking/financial world as long as we've been married, and she has always said how staggering it is. And it's not just poor people of course, but they are the one's more immediately impacted by those poor financial decisions. You can be both poor, and personally responsible for your financial situation. Wealth redistribution, and tax reform aren't going to correct those habits.

 

 

 

I wonder what the reasoning could be for our school systems and institutions not giving us any training or education on money management?

[funhusker]

16 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

I wonder what the reasoning could be for our school systems and institutions not giving us any training or education on money management?

The same reason they don't require training on residential and automotive maintenance, healthy cooking and childcare: not enough funding to hire the teachers.  Instead they are made electives so only about 10-20% of the student body gets educated in these areas if they choose to take the class.

[B.B. Hemingway]

1 hour ago, funhusker said:

The same reason they don't require training on residential and automotive maintenance, healthy cooking and childcare: not enough funding to hire the teachers.  Instead they are made electives so only about 10-20% of the student body gets educated in these areas if they choose to take the class.

 

The origin of the skills gap. I'm not the "handiest" guy in the world, but it truly baffles me the lack of knowledge the next generation has in those fields.

 

 

1 hour ago, Landlord said:

 

 

I wonder what the reasoning could be for our school systems and institutions not giving us any training or education on money management?

 

Good point. I never found it that hard, personally.... And my household growing up was pretty damn poor. It's less of a skill to learn, and more self-discipline. Imo.

[Big Red 40]

Poor, and lower income people are at a huge disadvantage when the pitfalls of life occur. When Medical/dental bills, Vehicle repairs , Appliance failure, etc happen they are stuck with high interest loans/credit cards, paycheck advances, rent to own, and all manner of predatory lenders as their only options. Those "bad choices" are often merely a result of picking the least bad option available, making it very easy to fall into a cycle of revolving debt that you have little chance of escaping. Its easy to say "just do without" but with  many of the things i listed that's not an option, and some, if ignored, will cost much more down the road, making your situation even worse. I've lived on both sides of the scenario and its much easier to make good decisions, now that i have a good credit score, good income, and even a small amount in savings. For years i had none of that and my options were much worse.

[B.B. Hemingway]

1 hour ago, Big Red 40 said:

Poor, and lower income people are at a huge disadvantage when the pitfalls of life occur. When Medical/dental bills, Vehicle repairs , Appliance failure, etc happen they are stuck with high interest loans/credit cards, paycheck advances, rent to own, and all manner of predatory lenders as their only options. Those "bad choices" are often merely a result of picking the least bad option available, making it very easy to fall into a cycle of revolving debt that you have little chance of escaping. Its easy to say "just do without" but with  many of the things i listed that's not an option, and some, if ignored, will cost much more down the road, making your situation even worse. I've lived on both sides of the scenario and its much easier to make good decisions, now that i have a good credit score, good income, and even a small amount in savings. For years i had none of that and my options were much worse.

 

Sure, but there are also plenty of poor people that compound their financial situations with bad decisions. I'm sure we all see examples of this in our day to day lives. My parents, as I mentioned earlier, were pretty poor, and had outstanding credit. Bad credit has little to do with how much money you have, and everything to do with lack of discipline and overextending yourself financially. And this post isn't to argue with anything you said, but not every poor person is a victim of the system.

[Landlord]

6 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

Sure, but there are also plenty of poor people that compound their financial situations with bad decisions. I'm sure we all see examples of this in our day to day lives. My parents, as I mentioned earlier, were pretty poor, and had outstanding credit. Bad credit has little to do with how much money you have, and everything to do with lack of discipline and overextending yourself financially. And this post isn't to argue with anything you said, but not every poor person is a victim of the system.

 

 

You're right that not every poor person is a victim of the system. But middle and upper class people also make bad decisions, and their wealth generally insulates them from those really costing anything. 

[teachercd]

15 hours ago, B.B. Hemingway said:

 

The origin of the skills gap. I'm not the "handiest" guy in the world, but it truly baffles me the lack of knowledge the next generation has in those fields.

 

 

 

Good point. I never found it that hard, personally.... And my household growing up was pretty damn poor. It's less of a skill to learn, and more self-discipline. Imo.

There are finance and personal finance classes in high school but think back to high school and how much attention you paid to s#!t like that.  Just like we all took PE and learned about living a healthy life but most of us stop working out and running once we aren't forced.

 

And let's face it, no 16 year old is getting his paycheck and saying "Well, Mr. Schmeckie said I should say 33% of the each check so I am going to do that"

 

Also, how we do things with our money is different for everyone.  

[BigRedBuster]

I fail to see how it's the school system's responsibility to teach every child that you shouldn't spend more money than you make...or that you should save money for emergencies or retirement.

 

Schools have an opportunity to offer classes on this stuff, and many do.  But, it's far from the responsibility of the school system to teach students this stuff.

 

People are poor for many reasons ranging from their own fault with choices they make to factors totally out of their power.  Many times when it's because of choices they make, those choices are instilled in them from family or people of influence around them.

 

[teachercd]

1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

I fail to see how it's the school system's responsibility to teach every child that you shouldn't spend more money than you make...or that you should save money for emergencies or retirement.

 

Schools have an opportunity to offer classes on this stuff, and many do.  But, it's far from the responsibility of the school system to teach students this stuff.

 

 

Also, we are all different with what we do with our money.  Educating on the options are one thing but like you said it really isn't the teachers job to tell students what they should do with their money.

[deedsker]

2 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

I fail to see how it's the school system's responsibility to teach every child that you shouldn't spend more money than you make...or that you should save money for emergencies or retirement.

 

Schools have an opportunity to offer classes on this stuff, and many do.  But, it's far from the responsibility of the school system to teach students this stuff.

So, whatever your parents are bad at, it's fine for you to go through life never knowing because we shouldn't force schools to teach it to kids?

[BigRedBuster]

5 minutes ago, deedsker said:

So, whatever your parents are bad at, it's fine for you to go through life never knowing because we shouldn't force schools to teach it to kids?

So, whatever parents are bad at, we are going to force the schools to teach to kids?

 

Careful, that list can go on forever.  I guess we don't need to teach STEM anymore and prepare kids for college or to be employed.