Biden's America

[JJ Husker]

1 hour ago, Lorewarn said:

 

 

Why do folks who have a problem with any form of student debt forgiveness not have anything to say in regards to food stamps, SSI, and welfare? 

 

 

I view these issues completely differently. Food stamps, welfare etc. help the less fortunate. Sure many may have made poor life choices but by and large these aren’t people who even had a chance at higher education. A great many of them can’t provide for themselves for a myriad of reasons. Their situation is more inevitable and not necessarily the result of a choice they made. They are needy.

 

College debt is a conscious decision and in many cases it’s a calculated gamble. This degree should garner $10k (or whatever) more per year in income and that will allow me to repay the incurred debt in 10 years (or whatever time frame). The problems arise when people go way too far into debt or waste their education on a field that stands no chance of providing the required income. And more importantly, this type of student debt relief doesn’t discern between those who may really need help and the rich person whose just dragging their feet paying it off.

 

I will admit, I’m biased. My wife and I paid off our own student loans. Granted it wasn’t the high 5 or 6 digit numbers some have recently accrued. We also paid for a bit of our son’s (he only went 2 years locally) and a much larger chunk for our daughter who graduated from UNL in 2.5 years. They both had some debt of their own that they managed to completely pay off within a few years. We used home equity and savings for our share. I see absolutely no reason why some kid who stupidly went $50k+ into debt, probably for some useless degree, is more deserving of a government handout than we are. We did it right while others apparently haven’t. It’s not that I want my share, I just don’t want my tax money used to pay for others what we paid by ourselves. Unless you’re going to be a doctor, going $100k into education debt is just damn ridiculous.

 

The only thing that makes me sympathetic is society has made it appear required. All that has done is bloat higher education and allowed them to charge vastly more than what their service is worth. We need to start better identifying kids in Middle school and High school and heading them in more varied directions and quit drilling home the idea that the only way to make it in life is a $200k diploma. So many graduates enter the workforce in a job that anyone with a half a brain and a little desire could do but that employer is requiring a degree to do it. It’s stupid. The whole system is built to funnel huge amounts of money into higher education that in most cases isn’t even needed.

 

[Lorewarn]

1 hour ago, JJ Husker said:

I view these issues completely differently. Food stamps, welfare etc. help the less fortunate. Sure many may have made poor life choices but by and large these aren’t people who even had a chance at higher education. A great many of them can’t provide for themselves for a myriad of reasons. Their situation is more inevitable and not necessarily the result of a choice they made. They are needy.

 

The people with the most significant impact from student loan forgiveness are the 'less fortunate' who 'can't provide for themselves for a myriad of reasons'. Despite the rich kid liberal arts boogeyman that conservative media paints as the caricature, it's moreso folks who are paying $700 a month and having $650 of it going to interest, the folks who were steered towards costly forbearance options by predatory debt service providers, people who had unexpected children and can't afford child care or unexpected emergencies, etc. Would you be more open to the idea if there was an income cap to be eligible for any forgiveness or a tier system in terms of amount forgiven? I would be for that, and a big part of all of this actually is that with the Income Driven Repayment plans that forgive the remainder after X amount of years.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, JJ Husker said:

College debt is a conscious decision and in many cases it’s a calculated gamble.

 

 

It's a conscious decision made almost entirely by 17-18 year olds. Many should be and are surrounded by folks giving them good info, but many aren't and like you said, society has made it appear required. I'm also biased, as someone who came from nothing and was trying to make my mom proud after she worked so hard to give me a good chance at life. She didn't, and I didn't, even conceive a world where not going to college if I had the opportunity was even an option, and not knowing any better about anything i followed the path laid before me and it took me several years of struggling and trying to do what I thought I was supposed to only to realize that wasn't the right path for me.

 

A costly mistake, and it was absolutely a mistake, but it wasn't reckless or entitled or irresponsible; I was never provided with any other glimpse at any other path. I think a large part of the resistance to this idea is the story being told about "choice" creating an archetype of someone reckless and irresponsible and entitled getting a handout when, imo, that is not an accurate representation of the dominant type of person benefitting.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, JJ Husker said:

It’s not that I want my share, I just don’t want my tax money used to pay for others what we paid by ourselves.

 

 

This is where I (respectfully), don't understand the difference between student debt forgiveness and food stamps or welfare, other than the narrative. Conceptually, your tax dollars going to food stamps to pay for others to be able to get food when you pay for your own food isn't any different. 

 

[Born N Bled Red]

2 hours ago, Lorewarn said:

 

The people with the most significant impact from student loan forgiveness are the 'less fortunate' who 'can't provide for themselves for a myriad of reasons'. Despite the rich kid liberal arts boogeyman that conservative media paints as the caricature, it's moreso folks who are paying $700 a month and having $650 of it going to interest, the folks who were steered towards costly forbearance options by predatory debt service providers, people who had unexpected children and can't afford child care or unexpected emergencies, etc. Would you be more open to the idea if there was an income cap to be eligible for any forgiveness or a tier system in terms of amount forgiven? I would be for that, and a big part of all of this actually is that with the Income Driven Repayment plans that forgive the remainder after X amount of years.

 

 

 

 

 

It's a conscious decision made almost entirely by 17-18 year olds. Many should be and are surrounded by folks giving them good info, but many aren't and like you said, society has made it appear required. I'm also biased, as someone who came from nothing and was trying to make my mom proud after she worked so hard to give me a good chance at life. She didn't, and I didn't, even conceive a world where not going to college if I had the opportunity was even an option, and not knowing any better about anything i followed the path laid before me and it took me several years of struggling and trying to do what I thought I was supposed to only to realize that wasn't the right path for me.

 

A costly mistake, and it was absolutely a mistake, but it wasn't reckless or entitled or irresponsible; I was never provided with any other glimpse at any other path. I think a large part of the resistance to this idea is the story being told about "choice" creating an archetype of someone reckless and irresponsible and entitled getting a handout when, imo, that is not an accurate representation of the dominant type of person benefitting.

 

 

 

 

 

This is where I (respectfully), don't understand the difference between student debt forgiveness and food stamps or welfare, other than the narrative. Conceptually, your tax dollars going to food stamps to pay for others to be able to get food when you pay for your own food isn't any different. 

 

 

 

He'd rather his taxes go to PPP loans, corporate bailouts, and subsidizing mega corporation and share holder profits through government benefits so they can continue to pay substandard wages. Oh and also, don't forget the farmers. Make sure the farmers get their welfare (ehrm) subsidy checks. Those are the folks that really need tax dollars in their pockets.

[JJ Husker]

4 hours ago, Born N Bled Red said:

 

 

He'd rather his taxes go to PPP loans, corporate bailouts, and subsidizing mega corporation and share holder profits through government benefits so they can continue to pay substandard wages. Oh and also, don't forget the farmers. Make sure the farmers get their welfare (ehrm) subsidy checks. Those are the folks that really need tax dollars in their pockets.

Respectfully, you have absolutely no idea where or what I prefer my tax dollars go to. None.
 

Really? You thought it wise to attack my motives simply because I am opposed to this type of student loan debt bailout?

[teachercd]

If you can't see the difference between food stamps and college loans it is because you don't want to see the difference and that id fine but everyone knows there is a difference.  But we can move on past that.

 

A teacher in OPS, starting out, will make 50,500 or 3,367 dollars a month after taxes (coach one sport and you can add in another 3-4K if not more).  A pretty avg college loan is 500 a month.

 

Is that more than doable?  Yeah, it is.  

 

If I had a loan (or any debt, which I do) would I want the G'ment to pay it back for me?  Yes, 100%, yes please.

 

A kid going off to college is not sooooo stupid that they can't understand what a loan is or that they will have to pay it back.  What they are stupid about is the kind of money they might (or might not) make AND what to spend their money on after they get that first job.

 

1,200 dollar apt in the cool fun area or a practical 800 dollar apartment.  A used Honda Accord for 200 a month OR a new cool truck for 550 a month.

 

Again, I am all for the G'ment paying off my debt and I HOPE they do it for me.  If they are going to start with college loans, okay, just move on to CC debt and home loans next.  

[teachercd]

22 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

Respectfully, you have absolutely no idea where or what I prefer my tax dollars go to. None.
 

Really? You thought it wise to attack my motives simply because I am opposed to this type of student loan debt bailout?

You totally LOVE farmers!  Haha

 

Yeah, that was weird though, out of nowhere that poster chimed in and attacked you.

 

 

[JJ Husker]

7 hours ago, Lorewarn said:

 

The people with the most significant impact from student loan forgiveness are the 'less fortunate' who 'can't provide for themselves for a myriad of reasons'. Despite the rich kid liberal arts boogeyman that conservative media paints as the caricature, it's moreso folks who are paying $700 a month and having $650 of it going to interest, the folks who were steered towards costly forbearance options by predatory debt service providers, people who had unexpected children and can't afford child care or unexpected emergencies, etc. Would you be more open to the idea if there was an income cap to be eligible for any forgiveness or a tier system in terms of amount forgiven? I would be for that, and a big part of all of this actually is that with the Income Driven Repayment plans that forgive the remainder after X amount of years.

 

 

 

 

 

It's a conscious decision made almost entirely by 17-18 year olds. Many should be and are surrounded by folks giving them good info, but many aren't and like you said, society has made it appear required. I'm also biased, as someone who came from nothing and was trying to make my mom proud after she worked so hard to give me a good chance at life. She didn't, and I didn't, even conceive a world where not going to college if I had the opportunity was even an option, and not knowing any better about anything i followed the path laid before me and it took me several years of struggling and trying to do what I thought I was supposed to only to realize that wasn't the right path for me.

 

A costly mistake, and it was absolutely a mistake, but it wasn't reckless or entitled or irresponsible; I was never provided with any other glimpse at any other path. I think a large part of the resistance to this idea is the story being told about "choice" creating an archetype of someone reckless and irresponsible and entitled getting a handout when, imo, that is not an accurate representation of the dominant type of person benefitting.

 

 

 

 

 

This is where I (respectfully), don't understand the difference between student debt forgiveness and food stamps or welfare, other than the narrative. Conceptually, your tax dollars going to food stamps to pay for others to be able to get food when you pay for your own food isn't any different. 

 

You are right. There is no 1 stereotype of person who may have excessive student debt and it isn’t necessarily the result of a bad choice.  But the same can be said of those who find themselves suffering crushing debt from credit cards or a mortgage or a business loan.

 

What I would much rather see happen is implement controls within the student loans that prevents situations where payments are mostly or all interest while not reducing principal. Structure them so once they hit a certain limit then it is mandatory any further payments go strictly to principal or the debt is erased. In fact, they could do the same thing with all loans. The only thing that is special or exceptional about student loans is that they are targeted at 17 to 22 year old kids. What they need are better predatory loan prevention measures.  I do like that Biden is trying to structure the loan forgiveness towards certain long term situations but they can do much better still. Hell, my kids delayed paying theirs back when all this talk started with the hope some or all of it would be forgiven. We absolutely would’ve taken it but that doesn’t make it the right way to solve a problem.

[JJ Husker]

13 minutes ago, teachercd said:

You totally LOVE farmers!  Haha

 

Yeah, that was weird though, out of nowhere that poster chimed in and attacked you.

 

 

Yeah that was weird. I’m sure in his mind he pictures me leading a Klan MAGA rally and buying gold Trump sneakers. Bizarre.

[teachercd]

19 minutes ago, JJ Husker said:

Yeah that was weird. I’m sure in his mind he pictures me leading a Klan MAGA rally and buying gold Trump sneakers. Bizarre.

Hahaha!  That guy got right in your kitchen for no reason!  

[JJ Husker]

7 hours ago, Born N Bled Red said:

 

 

He'd rather his taxes go to PPP loans, corporate bailouts, and subsidizing mega corporation and share holder profits through government benefits so they can continue to pay substandard wages. Oh and also, don't forget the farmers. Make sure the farmers get their welfare (ehrm) subsidy checks. Those are the folks that really need tax dollars in their pockets.

[ZRod]

5 hours ago, JJ Husker said:

Respectfully, you have absolutely no idea where or what I prefer my tax dollars go to. None.
 

Really? You thought it wise to attack my motives simply because I am opposed to this type of student loan debt bailout?

He's very angry...

[Lorewarn]

5 hours ago, JJ Husker said:

You are right. There is no 1 stereotype of person who may have excessive student debt and it isn’t necessarily the result of a bad choice.  But the same can be said of those who find themselves suffering crushing debt from credit cards or a mortgage or a business loan.

 

What I would much rather see happen is implement controls within the student loans that prevents situations where payments are mostly or all interest while not reducing principal. Structure them so once they hit a certain limit then it is mandatory any further payments go strictly to principal or the debt is erased. In fact, they could do the same thing with all loans. The only thing that is special or exceptional about student loans is that they are targeted at 17 to 22 year old kids. What they need are better predatory loan prevention measures.  I do like that Biden is trying to structure the loan forgiveness towards certain long term situations but they can do much better still. Hell, my kids delayed paying theirs back when all this talk started with the hope some or all of it would be forgiven. We absolutely would’ve taken it but that doesn’t make it the right way to solve a problem.

 

 

These are all good thoughts and I agree with most of it. There's a lot of ways to skin this cat, with the important starting point being acknowledging that it is a problem that people are unduly suffering from and that behooves us to fix. A lot of possible solutions are non-starters due to the political reality of Congress, and a lot of other possible solutions will ultimately come down to relatively subjective taste/preference. And I do think, best I understand it, that some versions of the things you are suggesting are being done or attempted at least to a degree.

 

Freely admitting my bias, I'm incredibly grateful to have some amount of relief from this cloud hanging over my head that was the result of a mistake born out of a good but (unknown to me or anyone around me at the time) misguided desire for the path in my life. My debt hasn't been forgiven, but I am on an IDR which has frozen my interest accruing and put me at a whopping $5/month payment based on my income. I've already felt some amount of liberation from this being able to participate more economically. Nothing crazy, buying a house is still a total pipe dream, but I'm finally able to have a tiny modest amount of savings/investment, working on trying to build and sustain a meager small business, be a patron at others, etc. 

 

 

[Scarlet]

Biden's America.  Where even the MAGAist of the MAGAs want to campaign on the accomplishments.  

 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

The majority of Americans just aren't savvy about personal economics, and in fairness there is always a non-stop hard sell of buy now/pay later from the companies who profit from consumer debt. Claiming the borrower should know better is true but it's like telling people not to have that second, third, or fourth drink. 

 

Some of these companies and some of that debt is predatory and exploitive, and a lot of that has leaked into the student loan business. Until we get ahold of skyrocketing secondary education costs --- and I think there's some movement in that direction -- we are looking at an entire generation that will lose productivity and buying power due to student loan debt, and that has larger economic consequences for everybody. Of course it will be packaged as a Biden bailout of wealthy entitled college libtards and a slap in the face of everyone paying off the loan on their F-150, so I don't expect we will learn anything of substance on yet another nuanced issue. 

 

[JJ Husker]

16 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

The majority of Americans just aren't savvy about personal economics, and in fairness there is always a non-stop hard sell of buy now/pay later from the companies who profit from consumer debt. Claiming the borrower should know better is true but it's like telling people not to have that second, third, or fourth drink. 

 

Some of these companies and some of that debt is predatory and exploitive, and a lot of that has leaked into the student loan business. Until we get ahold of skyrocketing secondary education costs --- and I think there's some movement in that direction -- we are looking at an entire generation that will lose productivity and buying power due to student loan debt, and that has larger economic consequences for everybody. Of course it will be packaged as a Biden bailout of wealthy entitled college libtards and a slap in the face of everyone paying off the loan on their F-150, so I don't expect we will learn anything of substance on yet another nuanced issue. 

 

One thing I’d really like to see is a mandatory Finances/Econ class that prospective student loan borrows have to take and pass before they are eligible to take out a student loan. Make sure they learn and understand loan language, terms, the effect of making bare minimum payments, how interest and compounding really works etc. Basically scare the bejeezus out of them just like drivers ed. Maybe it could be incorporated with the FAFSA application somehow. Either way, make GD sure they fully understand what borrowing money, especially substantial amounts, means for their immediate and 10-20-30 year futures.

 

I know I know, that may not be the deterrent for an 18 yo that it should be but at least we would all know they weren’t unknowingly suckered into a bad deal. Plus it would give some teachers another summertime job option. See how I’m also helping the economy